I Couldn't Resist

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:24 pm

Awhile ago, while I was organizing my gaming books I had a rare moment of pity on my poor, overburdened bookshelves. As I looked upon them and the assortment of gaming products I have collected over the years; 3 1/2 editions worth of D&D books, a couple editions of Shadowrun, Rifts, Talislanta, Deadlands and a host of other games, I decided that perhaps it was time for me to call it quits on buying any new game systems. The creaky, overburdened shelves just did not look like they could take anymore.

My bookshelves and my wife thanked me and all was happy in our home.

Then, I keep hearing hearing these tempting little whispers across the net...

"Check out C&C..."

"C&C is pretty much the only system I use any more..."

"I liked it, but it would have been better if we'd have run it in C&C."

But I was good. Despite the temptations, I resited the urge to pick it up or look at it. I had enough game systems, I didn't need another. Right?

My bookshelves praised my willpower and stated my name would go down in their hall of honor. My wife took glee in the extra spending money.

Then, all was changed...

As I was innocently reading through the NG boards the Great Temptor (also known as treebore) posted two little links for me to look at. Two little links for me to read through and see what all the hype about C&C was.

And so I was ensared...

This game looks to be simply amazing. The more I hear about it the more I want to play it. So, I ordered the PHB and M&T and now sit anxiously awaiting their delivery. I honestly feel like a kid waiting on christmas, my anticipation of this game is so great.

Curse you Treebore the Temptor. My bookshelves have proclaimed you an infidel.

DD

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:32 pm

Welcome aboard, DD!

Don't worry....there's not too much out for C&C. Yet.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun May 28, 2006 9:46 pm

Like he would need to buy any, his shelves have plenty of material to use.

I would recommend using Assault on Blacktooth Ridge (it would go aweome with Keep on the Borderlands if you have it) to get you warmed up on C&C, but after that anything goes!

Welcome to the boards DD, I hope you enjoy C&C as much as I do. More, if that is possible.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:13 am

Haha, great post DangerDwarf! Welcome to the forum. I think you'll be quite pleased with the game/books.

Regards,

Rhu.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon May 29, 2006 2:51 am

At least your bookshelves can be thankful that the C&C rulebooks are about 1/2 the size of their 3E counterparts.
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Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:44 am

And about 2/3 the price. Can;t beat that.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:27 am

I'll be honest, my 2e and 3.xe books are getting rather nervy since I thought of selling out and just running a C&C/AD&D hybrid!
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:37 am

Welcome! And look on the bright side -- your old D&D books get a new lease on life with C&C. You can use all those old classic D&D, and AD&D modules with C&C with no problem at all.

Wasgo · Post by **Wasgo** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:01 am

My bookshelf is much lighter with C&C. All my old 3.5 D&D stuff was either given away or sold. Now I have C&C, and 1st Ed. AD&D stuff on it.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:29 pm

Welcome aboard! Always glad to see another C&C junkie!! =)

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon May 29, 2006 7:23 pm

Thanks for the welcome.

My only concern now is how I'll get my groups to convert to C&C. I think I have this figured out however.

My first group will be fairly easy, they are all long time gamers and I think seeling them on the idea wont be a problem. It will just take a bit of time however as I am currently running through the AGe of Mortals capaign trilogy for Dragonlance.

I won't shut down their campaign early just to swap systems but a good opportunity has presented itself. We are currently on the Spetcre of Sorrows and since the next installement (Price of Cuorage) has had its release pushed back to July now I have a plan.

Once Spectre of Sorrows is complete I planned to have them make up different characters and run them through a series of side quests related to some of the actions their main characters have taken. Now I'll just make it C&C characters to run for these side stories, kind of let them see the system while we wait for PoC to be released.

My 2nd group will be a bit more of a challenge. They've been raised on the 3.5 "video game" rpg mentality and have a bad problem with powergaming. I've been smacking them down with old school goodness however and they a slowly improving. I think I'll just tell them I want a break from 3.5 for a night and run a session in C&C. The ideas of Assault on Blacktooth Ridge or Keep on the Borderlands sound good for this.

Anyways, thanks again for the welcome. I'll just be sitting here twitching impatiently while I wait for C&C to be deliverred to my door.

DD

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:22 pm

Welcome to the Crusade, DD. If you are looking for a good, 1-2 session module, I'd use A0: The Rising Knight. It sorta sets up AoBTR and the whole A series, plus it is a free download from the Trolls website.

R-
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Dee · Post by **Dee** » Mon May 29, 2006 11:50 pm

Quote:
They've been raised on the 3.5 "video game" rpg mentality

I think I have a problem with this label.

/begin rant

When I started playing D&D way back, we never "role-played" in the sense it's meant today, but did so in the sense it was meant then.

i.e. you assumed the role of a character, not acted out the role of a character like a bad session of Vampire: the Misguided.

The difference being (in "video game" connection): when I play City of Heroes I don't have "in character" word bubbles and thought bubbles coming out of my character's head onto the screen to enhance the "suspension of disbelief". or to get into "character"; and seeing someone else do so would be quite strange.

I'm not "role-playing" as is so often meant, but as it was done before.

The DM is free to give information (much in the same manner as in say City of Heroes' contacts) and does so. There is no "Fear of Girls" type play-acting/over-acting and certainly no dressing up in costume to play and blurring reality as the movie "Mazes & Monsters". These actions which WERE being done (and now are assumed to be "THE WAY IT'S DONE) by players did far more damage than Jack Chick's "Dark Dungeons" and ilk could have ever done.

Those videos actually illustrate (to me) one of the main reasons D&D was looked down upon for decades. It's a game (derived from tabletop wargaming), not a fourth rate acting school or a replacement means of therapy. It's a board game with no board. Anything more is delusion.

When I play Monopoly, I don't "act-out" like Trump, Hearst or Rockerfeller even though I've assumed the role of an up-and-coming tycoon.

/end rant

Mcrow · Post by **Mcrow** » Tue May 30, 2006 12:26 am

TheTrolls claws are sharp! Yet another in their clutches.

Welcome!

I ended up selling most of my 200+ book collection of FRPGs in favor of C&C. Now I have just my D&D 1st & 2nd edition books and C&C books left.

Once I picked up the C&C PHB, I was doomed and got all the other products as soon as they came out.

My newest crack has been the GFW series, man that stuff is good.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue May 30, 2006 5:15 am

Since converting to C&C and making my C&C/1e hybrid I have had thoughts of letting my 3e books meet Mr. Woodchipper and sending the remains to andy collins.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:24 am

Dee wrote:
I think I have a problem with this label.

I think perhaps I wansn't clear with my meaning of the "video game" mentality.

My thoughts of it are similiar to characters on EQ or other MMORPG's where most fighters are carbon copies of eachother because people get focused on absolutely min/maxing everything. Same gear, armor what have yu because it is the "optimal" way to do it.

Heck, after the 7th session with this group one player asked another, "What's your characters name?"

The response...

"Umm....I don't know *scrambled throught his papers to look it up*"

Seriously, I by no means expect the players to be drama majors in touch with their characters 'nature". But thinking you should know your own character's name after SEVEN 5-8 hour sessions seems fairly reasonable to me.

All of this is beside the point anyways.

Rigon wrote:
If you are looking for a good, 1-2 session module, I'd use A0: The Rising Knight.

Thanks, I downloaded it and looks pretty nice.

But for now all I can do is wait anxiously for the books to arrive. Perhaps I'll use the time to put my feeble carpentry skills to use and build a perch above my mailbox so I can sit atop it like a vulture as I await the mail lady this week.

With the price of the books I'll likely pick up a few extra copies of the PHB to pass around to members of both groups to kind of get them more intrigued.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:22 pm

Dee,

Not meaning to go OT on this....but "Role Playing" is a term that meant taking upon one's self a role and portraying that role to the best of your ability even before the games came up (re:Psychology). Not saying everyone should become amateur thespians, but IMO if someone's treating an RPG the same way as they treat Monopoly or Axis & Allies ....then (IMO) part of the point of RPGs are missed.

A certain amount of character portrayal is necessary....or you're just playing Dungeon! or HeroQuest! Which is fine (of course) if that's what you're looking for but I'd debate that such was always how it was meant to be played. I started in late 1978 w/D&D brown books and the group I played in (all in their 30s' I was the only kid) role played their characters with personal interaction as if they were the characters....with a certain amount of "OOC moments of course).

Play how you like, of course....but please don't lump those of us who actually "play our role" as some sort of theatre major wannabes!

Back OT; good luck converting your groups DD!
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:07 pm

I would have loved to be a theater wannabe Sieg.
[rant]

Seriously Dee, the "video game" mentality is brought on by the way TETSNBN is constructed. It's the game that turns the players into min/maxing number crunching sods who spend an hour or more over one single combat simply because they spend time determining attacks of opportunity over and over and over again. I could reiterate again about the destruction of the archetypes and all that, but it's not necessary, as those of us who play C&C already know such things.

Where is the fun in that? Better yet, does the DM actually have to do anything in TETSNBN except serve as an entertainer because the books explain everything for him?

Hollywood and TETSNBN are close cousins, as they're both creatively bankrupt and possibly morally bankrupt as well. The SRD is the only good thing to have come out of WotC's destruction of Dungeons & Dragons, for everything that made Dungeons & Dragons what it is was eviscerated by people who didn't understand what made the game tick. There were a few who understood, and tried to keep the game what it was, but that was hard to do when the recommendations made by the creator of the game were ignored by those who destroyed it.

[/rant]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DD, welcome to the crusade, and I wish you lots of good luck in persuading your groups to play Castles & Crusades.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:23 pm

Traveller wrote:
I would have loved to be a theater wannabe Sieg.
[rant]

Seriously Dee, the "video game" mentality is brought on by the way TETSNBN is constructed. It's the game that turns the players into min/maxing number crunching sods who spend an hour or more over one single combat simply because they spend time determining attacks of opportunity over and over and over again. I could reiterate again about the destruction of the archetypes and all that, but it's not necessary, as those of us who play C&C already know such things.

Where is the fun in that? Better yet, does the DM actually have to do anything in TETSNBN except serve as an entertainer because the books explain everything for him?

Hollywood and TETSNBN are close cousins, as they're both creatively bankrupt and possibly morally bankrupt as well. The SRD is the only good thing to have come out of WotC's destruction of Dungeons & Dragons, for everything that made Dungeons & Dragons what it is was eviscerated by people who didn't understand what made the game tick. There were a few who understood, and tried to keep the game what it was, but that was hard to do when the recommendations made by the creator of the game were ignored by those who destroyed it.

[/rant]

I could not possibly agree more. Very well said, Traveller!
Ink
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:41 pm

Welcome to the Crusade, DangerDwarf. May all your orcs be whimps, and all your attack rolls natural 20s!

ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:04 pm

Pretty much the same thing is happening to my group and I. We played with D&D since the red box. Up until last month. When we went 100% C&C and slap my collection D&D books off the shelf. I can actually see my shelf now. To be honest 90% of the 3.0 and 3.5 books I own never got open at all. Even the DM guide was a waste. Especially if you compare it to the 1st ed. of AD&D DM guide.

In a year or two, I'm pretty sure most old D&D players will be playing C&C and even the later players will convert because of the rules simplicity and true role-play feel.

Seriously, C&C should have been created years ago.
The way all this happened to my group is when I told them to create a C&C PC. What would have took 2 hours in D&D 3.5 took 15 min. On top of that the time was mainly spent on buying inventory. After our first session my players went silent for 5 min trying to realize what happened to them. One player finally spoke and said... That was the best adventure I played in ages, let's play again... and so we did and still do!
ZW.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:58 am

Quote:
Seriously Dee, the "video game" mentality is brought on by the way TETSNBN is constructed. It's the game that turns the players into min/maxing number crunching sods

I can say the exact same about D&D previously. Min/max has been around far longer than 3E -- you have people attempting to do the SAME EXACT THING with C&C. "But I want to MULTI-CLASS!", "I'm glad they got rid of racial restrictions", "Look at this new class I've developed for {whatever}; it's more balanced now!" etc. etc. etc.

I have problems pigeonholing a certain edition as something "that shall not be named" when the previous editons did the same. I don't really even like 3E, but dang there's some venom there. Did 3E run over your pet or something?

Make no mistake, I do like C&C better.

Character generation is easy. If the character survives, then I might name him. If he/she doesn't, well the next is just as easy to roll up.

And yeah AoO are stupid (IMO), but then 3E took the "back to minatures" approach which is where the game originated and for many. that is perfectly fine. I'm not a minatures wargamer, so it has no appeal to me.

BTW: I don't need the Raise Dead reset button either.

Nor the long-slow-levelling that "simulates" an in-depth character.

Gimme a break, you really think the creators did that? They wanted to level as fast as possible. That's why you got additional xp (1 to 1) for treasure found. Kind of a no-brainer there. Yeah, yeah... "that's not the way we played it". Go back and actually play by the rules sometime and see how fast you level and what min/maxing you do.

When I play, it's "I waste him with my crossbow!", not "I heroically whip out my crossbow and give a mighty shout to {whatever god I may pray to} as I charge into the fray with buckler on my back screaming "Die, you godless sons of the Abyss!" [with lit candles to give "mood"].

Knigts of the Dinner Table captures more than just the comedy. Hackmaster captures more than the "simplicity" of D&D.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:54 am

Wow....this thread is quickly degenerating into an RPG pissing contest - and you can find those anywhere. I suggest everyone take a step back, take a deeeeep breath and chill out. I apologize if anything I've said has come across as mean-spirited or what-have-you. While I personally don't care for D&D 3E and beyond, Dee is perfectly entitled to his/her own opinion. It's all good, y'know?

*sniff* Can't we all just get along?

/hides

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Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:14 am

Quote:
Inkpot wrote: [T]his thread is quickly degenerating into an RPG pissing contest... I apologize if anything I've said has come across as mean-spirited or what-have-you.

Like this?:

Quote:
Inkpot wrote: I could not possibly agree more. Very well said, Traveller!

Why would I think that was EGGing it on?

Quote:
Can't we all just get along?

Mostly.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:18 am

Yup. I agree with what Traveler said. Still do. Suck it up and move on, man.

Ink
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:14 am

You know what I really hate about messageboards? If we were sitting around a table and having this discussion we would all be agreeing about the particulars of our specific points and laughing about it. But because we are on faceless and voiceless messagebopard we get into a pissing contest about some minute points that have pretty much nothing to do with the fact that we have all found a specific game system that allows us to play the way we like to.

Go back and re-read your posts, your disagreement isn't all that big, its the "extras" you threw in that are your real issues.

Just sit back and realize if we all sat down at a gaming table we would all be having a blast playing together very quickly.

Personally, i have behaved a lot better on messageboards since I realized this and keep it in the fore front of my thoughts when I respond to others. Plus the fact that not seeing each others body language and hearing our tones of voice makes a huge difference as well.

So realize this has gotten blown out of proportion, and apologize to show your a cool and mature person, and move on in a civil manner.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed May 31, 2006 2:53 pm

Quote:
So realize this has gotten blown out of proportion, and apologize to show your a cool and mature person, and move on in a civil manner.

Sure. My issue wasn't as edition specific as believed though. But... I'll apologize for posting on a discussion board.

With a thread title of "I couldn't resist" it was kind of appropriate.

So, sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:25 pm

Dee, you've got a PM, since I don't wish to clutter this thread any further with replies that are off topic.

I suggest you read it, as you might find it enlightening.
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Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:50 pm

Reply sent.

I suggest you read it, as you might also find it enlightening.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:58 pm

Welcome to the Crusade, DangerDwarf. Once I looked over C&C I never went to another fantasy game. I hope C&C enlightens you the same as it has for many of us.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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