First off, an introduction. I suspect (I hope at least ) that I am like a lot of folks here. I played D&D as a kid, got away from the hobby when I grew a little older and found time to be wanting and have now re-discovered the hobby.
Except what I re-discovered was not a broad set of rules designed to make make-believe fun but a morass of rules that requires a Library of Congress librarian to sort out. I work close to 70 hours a week as an attorney. My downtime is precious and when I have it, I want to pick up and play...
That is all by way of saying, thank you Trolls...C&C fits my needs quite nicely. I like the substance and I like the style.
Now, my question. And maybe this smacks of 3.5ism a little too much in which case you should feel free to point that out...ELs in 3.5 seem to be a very easy way to balance encounters for PCs. I didn't seem to come across such a mechanism in reading M&T. Admittedly, I read it quickly, but I was just wondering if there is an easy way to figure out (other than simply be experience) what would constitute an appropriate challenge for a group of PCs.
Thanks again, Trolls, for a wonderful FRPG. Add another fan to the rolls...
Balancing Encounters - How to do it?
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The Velvet Souljah
- Mist Elf
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:00 am
Generally speaking I go with twice the HD of the "bad guys" in relation to the HD/Level of the PC's.
Plus if your good with percentages, you want the monsters to be able to hit the typical/average AC of the PC fighter types 25% of the time.
Spell threats are a bit trickier, because the right spell with the right failures to saves can lead to quick deaths. So I use spellcasters very rarely. For an example, my families characters are 10th level and they have faced less than 20 enemy spellcasters. Most of those were when I ran the classic "Against the Giants" modules for them.
So you have to pay close attention to what the save TN will be for your players, and what the likely effects the spell will have on their ability to survive/continue to fight.
Basically, get good at figuring out and weighing the odds.
Plus if your good with percentages, you want the monsters to be able to hit the typical/average AC of the PC fighter types 25% of the time.
Spell threats are a bit trickier, because the right spell with the right failures to saves can lead to quick deaths. So I use spellcasters very rarely. For an example, my families characters are 10th level and they have faced less than 20 enemy spellcasters. Most of those were when I ran the classic "Against the Giants" modules for them.
So you have to pay close attention to what the save TN will be for your players, and what the likely effects the spell will have on their ability to survive/continue to fight.
Basically, get good at figuring out and weighing the odds.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
The following is solely based on personal experience (this is no hard rule) but I've found that my players can handle (meaning that it is fairly challenging for them) twice as much HDs of opponents as their own party's levels total in a single encounter, as long as the most powerful foes are of the same HD range as the average party level (I consider low level to be 1-3, medium to be 4-7, high to be 8-12, and epic to be 13+). Obviously, the CK's judgment is of outmost importance for such matters... 
Welcome to the Crusade!
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8
Welcome to the Crusade!
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8
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Gnostic Gnoll
- Ungern
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:00 am
Hello Souljah, and welcome to the Crusade!
Here are some numbers and thoughts to get you started.
To-Hit %
Every number on a d20 equates to a 5% chance. To determine how often a monster will hit any given character, simply subtract that monster's to-hit bonus (usually its Hit Dice in C&C) to that PCs Armor Class. This gives you the number the monster needs to roll in order to hit; multiply that by 5 and you get a % chance to miss. Subtract that from 100% and you get the chance to hit.
The same goes for the players; just compare their to-hit numbers to the AC of the monster. Is the fighter going to hit it only 10% of the time? The encounter might be too difficult.
Average Damage
Average damage on a die is equal to the average of the number of sides it has. Broken down by die type, that's d4 (2.5), d6 (3.5), d8 (4.5), d10 (5.5), d12 (6.5) and--rarely--d20 (10.5). Just multiply that by the number of dice, and add any static modifiers to damage and you'll get a total average result. Per hit, a combatant will deal about this much damage. You can compare this and the percentage to hit in order to get an idea of how long a monster or PC will stay alive.
Randomness
Randomness increases the odds in the favor of the underdogs. Rolling dice causes randomness. Therefore several monsters of a power slightly less than or on par with the PCs tends to be more of a challenge than one mighty monster, since that is the game equivalent of putting all your eggs in one basket. However,
Until It Breaks, It's a Heavy Basket
While a single powerful monster might be more quickly defeated due to the combined efforts of the PC on a single assailant, the damage likely to be inflicted by that monster will tend to be a lot higher. Even if the PCs defeat it, the odds that it kills or otherwise subdues one or more of the PCs increases.
Basically, all any of this says is use a little bit of caution and common sense when planning your encounter. If the monster will hit the heavily-armored characters more than 25% of the time (rolling less than a 15), and deal high average damage, then the survivability of all the other characters is much sketchier. That same monster might hit the wizard 75% of the time and do enough damage to kill in one or two hits. Likewise, if the high BtH PCs can only hit the monster around 25% of the time, the other characters' odds of dealing damage plummet.
The Challenge Level was a really good idea in 3.5. Unfortunately it was balanced against a rather low-powered point buy system as compared to the 4d6, drop the lowest method of dice (or even slightly higher point buys, which were my preferred method). Furthermore, some monsters (like the troll) had a ridiculously low CR. So even with that system, I found myself having to compare monsters with my characters when planning encounters. Then again, as was constantly emphasized, CR was a guide, not a rule. The same can be said for hit dice and experience in C&C.
If you want a real gauge for how things will go (again, I emphasize, on average), go right to the dice rolls and modifiers.
Here are some numbers and thoughts to get you started.
To-Hit %
Every number on a d20 equates to a 5% chance. To determine how often a monster will hit any given character, simply subtract that monster's to-hit bonus (usually its Hit Dice in C&C) to that PCs Armor Class. This gives you the number the monster needs to roll in order to hit; multiply that by 5 and you get a % chance to miss. Subtract that from 100% and you get the chance to hit.
The same goes for the players; just compare their to-hit numbers to the AC of the monster. Is the fighter going to hit it only 10% of the time? The encounter might be too difficult.
Average Damage
Average damage on a die is equal to the average of the number of sides it has. Broken down by die type, that's d4 (2.5), d6 (3.5), d8 (4.5), d10 (5.5), d12 (6.5) and--rarely--d20 (10.5). Just multiply that by the number of dice, and add any static modifiers to damage and you'll get a total average result. Per hit, a combatant will deal about this much damage. You can compare this and the percentage to hit in order to get an idea of how long a monster or PC will stay alive.
Randomness
Randomness increases the odds in the favor of the underdogs. Rolling dice causes randomness. Therefore several monsters of a power slightly less than or on par with the PCs tends to be more of a challenge than one mighty monster, since that is the game equivalent of putting all your eggs in one basket. However,
Until It Breaks, It's a Heavy Basket
While a single powerful monster might be more quickly defeated due to the combined efforts of the PC on a single assailant, the damage likely to be inflicted by that monster will tend to be a lot higher. Even if the PCs defeat it, the odds that it kills or otherwise subdues one or more of the PCs increases.
Basically, all any of this says is use a little bit of caution and common sense when planning your encounter. If the monster will hit the heavily-armored characters more than 25% of the time (rolling less than a 15), and deal high average damage, then the survivability of all the other characters is much sketchier. That same monster might hit the wizard 75% of the time and do enough damage to kill in one or two hits. Likewise, if the high BtH PCs can only hit the monster around 25% of the time, the other characters' odds of dealing damage plummet.
The Challenge Level was a really good idea in 3.5. Unfortunately it was balanced against a rather low-powered point buy system as compared to the 4d6, drop the lowest method of dice (or even slightly higher point buys, which were my preferred method). Furthermore, some monsters (like the troll) had a ridiculously low CR. So even with that system, I found myself having to compare monsters with my characters when planning encounters. Then again, as was constantly emphasized, CR was a guide, not a rule. The same can be said for hit dice and experience in C&C.
If you want a real gauge for how things will go (again, I emphasize, on average), go right to the dice rolls and modifiers.
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moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
- Posts: 3735
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Montreal, Canada
I think it depends how one runs their encounters. A tend to find that a good rule of thumb for me is HD for HD...
If the total party HD is 8 then the encounter should comprise a total of no more than 8 HD as well.
That being said, that same HD number for an opponent should not be more than double that of the average character level or HD. Thus if the average character is 2nd level, an opponent should never be more than 4 HD.
Let's face it, the likely hood that a party of eight first level characters defeating a single 8 HD creature is very slim. Eight first level characters have a better chance against four 2-HD creatures. Even then, expect heavy losses from the party.
Of course, it also depends on what creatures one chooses will affect this as well. All creatures are not created equal! It is certainly as much of an art as it is a science to create balanced encounters.
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
If the total party HD is 8 then the encounter should comprise a total of no more than 8 HD as well.
That being said, that same HD number for an opponent should not be more than double that of the average character level or HD. Thus if the average character is 2nd level, an opponent should never be more than 4 HD.
Let's face it, the likely hood that a party of eight first level characters defeating a single 8 HD creature is very slim. Eight first level characters have a better chance against four 2-HD creatures. Even then, expect heavy losses from the party.
Of course, it also depends on what creatures one chooses will affect this as well. All creatures are not created equal! It is certainly as much of an art as it is a science to create balanced encounters.
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
CR and EL are really dirty ways of dealing with the issue, I usually check their odds of hitting and being hit by the party, then check abilities and spells from both sides for difficulty on saving.
After those, use it, tweak it or use something else.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
After those, use it, tweak it or use something else.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
serleran wrote:
I use whatever the hell I want to use. If the encounter is too tough, I expect the party to retreat, use better tactics, or many other things. I don't try to make sure every thing in the universe is to their ability. The world, even a fantasy world, doesn't work like that.
I'm with Serlan on this one. Even though it's nice to make sure your campaign will continue and not require a bunch of new characters, I just put whatever makes sense at the moment. However... without going overboard, I do try not to throw the bigget black dragon at them all the time! LOL! All the suggestons put forward make sense, but I fon't adhere to them all the time. It's sometimes more fun to have a chase instead of a combat, so if I do throw the big black at them, well they better run. The chaotic chase that ensues is usually 10 times more fun than 'just another combat'.
Welcome to the crusade!
I do the same as you do, serl, but he asked about balancing the encounters, not making those that are unbalanced, as those are pretty easy to make. There are encounters you wanted to be balanced to the PCs, so how do you seek those, that was what I actually answered.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
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Jyrdan Fairblade
- Unkbartig
- Posts: 947
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Re: Balancing Encounters - How to do it?
Welcome to the Crusade!
I am a librarian, and I still don't like sorting out 3e.
Except for when I played 3e, I have always just eyeballed things when it comes to getting the right challenge.
For villains with classes, like evil wizards, unless they're meant to be recurring characters, I generally don't stat them more than 2 - 3 levels higher than the group.
I am a librarian, and I still don't like sorting out 3e.
Except for when I played 3e, I have always just eyeballed things when it comes to getting the right challenge.
For villains with classes, like evil wizards, unless they're meant to be recurring characters, I generally don't stat them more than 2 - 3 levels higher than the group.
The Velvet Souljah wrote:
Except what I re-discovered was not a broad set of rules designed to make make-believe fun but a morass of rules that requires a Library of Congress librarian to sort out.
I knew the question. My answer just wasn't formatted in a strict "this is how" but rather, in a "don't bother." The natural events of using a "too tough" encounter will rectify the situtaion, until, over time, you'll know what can be easily fought, what can easily decimate the party, and when they'll just run no matter what. There is no simple solution, and advice is only advice... its not even universally applicable, seeing as the vast plethora of options makes every game unique. However, as I've said before, and will say again.... use the XP awarded by the encounter as a guide. You should be comfortable with the amount split between the party members, assuming they all live. For example, if you throw a monster worth 10k at a level 2 party, and they somehow survive it to get all the XP (and there's 5 of them in the group) that's 2k each, or, about half a level. Probably worth it, seeing as they took down something HUGE in comparison (or, maybe, just lots and lots and lots and lots of wussies.) Of course, the easier way would be to see the 10K is twice as much as the wizard would need (roughly) and say "BS!" It cannot, and should not, be broken into a statistical array of matrices and absolute values of exponential imaginaries (heheh, that would be weird, anyway) or some severe enjoyment of encountering those "oh my god!!!!" is lost, and so is "wow, that was supposed to be hard? we kicked its testes to valhalla."
Ser,
Thats a nice answer, but your strateg won't work if its so unbalanced they are slaughtered faster than they can run away.
Since I am going to take that much time to prevent that, I may as well spend an extra 20 seconds or so to make sure the encounter is OK.
This in no way means I won't throw encounters at my players that they need to retreat. I just make sure, to the best of my abilities, that they will have the time to realize they are in trouble and run soon enough to live.
So my goal is to make sure that the PC's will survive long enough via "fair" encounters, the luck rules, and the god calls, they will be able to continue on with the campaign. They have been playing these characters for about 16 months now, and are 10th or 11th level (except the Runemark Druid who is 8/8). No one wants a TPK to ruin all of that time and character building.
So rather than risk throwing something over powered at the PC's and ending up having to fudge rolls and/or"underplay" the monsters/bad guys I take the couple of minutes to make sure things are fair enough. It prevents a lot of headaches in the long run.
Thats a nice answer, but your strateg won't work if its so unbalanced they are slaughtered faster than they can run away.
Since I am going to take that much time to prevent that, I may as well spend an extra 20 seconds or so to make sure the encounter is OK.
This in no way means I won't throw encounters at my players that they need to retreat. I just make sure, to the best of my abilities, that they will have the time to realize they are in trouble and run soon enough to live.
So my goal is to make sure that the PC's will survive long enough via "fair" encounters, the luck rules, and the god calls, they will be able to continue on with the campaign. They have been playing these characters for about 16 months now, and are 10th or 11th level (except the Runemark Druid who is 8/8). No one wants a TPK to ruin all of that time and character building.
So rather than risk throwing something over powered at the PC's and ending up having to fudge rolls and/or"underplay" the monsters/bad guys I take the couple of minutes to make sure things are fair enough. It prevents a lot of headaches in the long run.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Quote:
Thats a nice answer, but your strateg won't work if its so unbalanced they are slaughtered faster than they can run away.
This should never happen. One, because the CK is not supposed to be out to destroy the party... its too easy, and two, because the players should be smarter than that. They have numerous options at their disposal, all of which are in the book, and simply involve a little use, like detection effects, abilities like move silently, or just keeping themselves spread enough so someone, even the slow half-orc with a 3 Dex can at least run. They have spells, and ranged weapons they can use, and a whole variety of neat racial abilities like scent and improved visions. Assuming intelligent play, a party can realize they are approaching death before its even shown itself to them.
However, should the Ck decide to just drop doom from above, they still have many options.. such as surrender, barter, banter and others.
Now, if the CK is being especially prickly and uses a non-intelligent Abaddon to smote the PCs with hellish fury, then its generally obvious that the intention was to kill, maim, or otherwise be a scrote. This is not the norm, nor should it be considered as such. It, too, can be diverted if the CK actually intended it otherwise, though, by, and this is something one must always remember about the unintelligent monster, it doing something stupid... like, say, letting the others go as it feeds on the corpse of the elven cancer witch, or attacking in random spurts so as to wound, not kill, everyone, which would allow a chance for the party to decide to get away.
If a CK, and it requires this, purposefully mandates a no-escape... than its unfair, and the CK needs to learn that the game might make him God, but paradise, in these terms, is only achieved through good works.
It just sounded in your first post that you were having a "devil may care" or cavalier kind of attitude about what you throw at your players, and how you throw them at them.
I know from reading other things you post that you give a lot of thought to what your doing, but others may not be as familiar with your way of thinking as I have over the years (its been years? Wow! Time flies.). So I posted a "counter point" so that newer readers could have it.
Now, with your last repsonse, they will get the full progression of your methodology.
I know from reading other things you post that you give a lot of thought to what your doing, but others may not be as familiar with your way of thinking as I have over the years (its been years? Wow! Time flies.). So I posted a "counter point" so that newer readers could have it.
Now, with your last repsonse, they will get the full progression of your methodology.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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irda ranger
- Red Cap
- Posts: 224
- Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:00 am
Re: Balancing Encounters - How to do it?
The Velvet Souljah wrote:
I was just wondering if there is an easy way to figure out (other than simply be experience) what would constitute an appropriate challenge for a group of PCs.
Not to be flip; but the answer is "Practice; on your part." The CR/EL system is a very rough hack. There's no magic formula to it, even in D&D 3.x CR/EL assumes an "average" party with "average" resources for their level. Take a magic sword away, or create some tactical dis-advantage, and CR goes right out the window. It's just an illusion of guidance. The only thing that can "balance" and encounter is a CK's judgment regarding what his PC's and his monsters are capable of.
I'm mostly in Serleran's camp though. I don't balance encounters ahead of time. Monsters and enemies are what they are, and the PC's decide if they think they can take them on. Since my PC's can be very ambitious this has lead to some very hard fights; but that's OK by me. On the other hand, on one of their first treks into the woods while 1st level the Ranger found evidence of Green dragon spore; they made haste in the opposite direction.
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DangerDwarf
- Maukling
- Posts: 5284
- Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: East Texas
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moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
- Posts: 3735
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Hmm ... I have the book but don't recall that section... Time to go refresh my memory!
Moriarty the Red
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com