Detect Thoughts spell

[Big Ulf]

Hey as per the 7th printing PH, this would allow you to read surface thoughts right? Not just detect the presence of surface thoughts? Was thinking it’s like Basic D&D ESP

[DMSamuel]

So my official ruling - it's your game and you should do with it what you want, you won't break C&C no matter which of these you decide, but if you want a researched answer, here it is:

Here is the Basic D&D ESP Spell description (page 41, player's book):
"This spell will allow the magic-user to "hear" thoughts. The magic-user must concentrate in one direction for six rounds (1 minute) to ESP the thoughts of a creature within range (if any). Any single living creature's thoughts may be understood, regardless of the language. The thoughts (if any) of Undead creatures cannot be "heard" with this spell. If more than one creature is within range and in the direction concentrated on, the magic-user will "hear" a confused jumble of thoughts. The magic user may only sort out the jumble by concentrating for an extra six rounds to find a single creature. The ESP will not be hampered by any amount of wood or liquid, and will penetrate as much as 2 feet of rock, but a thin coating of lead will block the spell."

So... The Basic D&D ESP spell specifically says the caster can "hear" the thoughts of a single living creature and that the thoughts can be understood regardless of language. The thing is, though... that C&C is based more on 1e AD&D than on basic D&D, so if we are really trying to get to the heart of the intent, we need to look at the 2nd level ESP spell in the 1e AD&D phb, which reads very much like the C&C phb description.

Here is the 1e AD&D description (page 70):
"When an ESP spell is used, the caster is able to detect the surface thoughts of any creatures in range — except creatures with no mind (as we know it), such as all of the undead. The ESP is stopped by 2 or more feet of rock, 2 or more inches of any metal other than lead, or a thin sheet of lead foil. The magic-user employing the spell is able to probe the surface thoughts of 1 creature per turn, getting simple instinctual thoughts from lower order creatures. Probes can continue on the same creature from round to round. The caster can use the spell to help determine if some creature lurks behind a door, for example, but the ESP will not always reveal what sort of creature it is. The material component of this spell is a copper piece."

Compared to the 7th printing C&C phb (page 102):
"The character can detect surface thoughts, and get a general impression of the level of intelligence involved. The caster detects the presence or absence of thoughts (from conscious creatures with intelligence scores of 1 or higher) in the direction the caster is facing, along a path 50 feet long and 10 feet wide. The caster must spend one round concentrating along the path, although the caster may both cast the spell and begin detecting in the same round as the spell is cast. Once thoughts are detected, if the caster concentrates an additional round, the general level of intelligence will be revealed as one of the following: animal, very low, low, average, high, very high, genius, supra-genius, or deific. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 2 feet of stone or metal, 2 inches of common metal, a thick sheet of lead or 5 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. The reverse of this spell, hide thoughts, obscures a subject’s thoughts and counters detect thoughts. The material component for this spell is a copper coin."

The C&C spell description only says "detect the presence or absence of" thoughts, not "read the detected thoughts accurately" so I would say no, the spell doesn't allow you to read thoughts. What's interesting is that, in the spell lists (page 81) it summarizes the detect thoughts spell as "Allows 'listening' to surface thoughts" which implies the designers did intend to make the spell effect allow for hearing and understanding the thoughts. This is why my official statement is that you should do what you want in your game - make a decision and stick with it.

[Big Ulf]

ya thanks - I realise the !e connection to C&C (one of the reasons we're playing it), but have been playing a lot of Basic recently and loved that too.

Your comment on the actual spell description v. the spell lists blurb is interesting, we're going with listening to surface thoughts, as determined by the CK.

[DMSamuel]

Sounds good! Have fun!