So let me get this straight...

The One and All · Post by **The One and All** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:31 am

Quick question..

Monsters that deals energy drain on each hit, like a Wraith or Wight, do not allow a save (Con) at all?

If so, why is it mention in the abilities table that Con is the save for Energy Drain?

So basicly, if the special abilities/damage of monsters from the M&T do not specify a save, the Pc's dont?

Just making sure.. this issue has come up twice in my games now and everyone has a different opinon on this.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:39 am

Because there are spells and other effects that require the save. I can think of at least one spell, and there are times when the save might be used (like against exhaustion...).

Wraiths do not give a save. If the monster ability does not say "as the spell" or specifically state a save vs. this or that, then the PC does not get a save. This means wraiths are very poor choices for low level parties to fight... unless you feel that level drain is temporary. But that's a houserule.

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:43 am

serleran wrote:
Because there are spells and other effects that require the save. I can think of at least one spell, and there are times when the save might be used (like against exhaustion...).

Wraiths do not give a save. If the monster ability does not say "as the spell" or specifically state a save vs. this or that, then the PC does not get a save. This means wraiths are very poor choices for low level parties to fight... unless you feel that level drain is temporary. But that's a houserule.

Okay, I've gotta say...I hate that. I mean, I really hate that.

It's officially now houseruled for my game that all level drain gets a Con save with a CL equal to the creature's HD.

Beyondthebreach · Post by **Beyondthebreach** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:33 pm

Hmm, I was under the impression that Energy Drain allowed a constitution save. I realize it does not say that in the monster description, however, it seems that the intent of the Player's Handbook is that all energy drain allows a save . . . it would seem to me that it would need to be explicitly stated that "no save is allowed" to overrule this . . .

I realize that Serleran certainly knows what he is talking about regarding the Monster descriptions . . . nevertheless . . . I just reread the description in the Player's Handbook 3 times (pg 113) and it certainly seems that the intent here is that all energy drain allows a Con save. Especially as the "monsters" referenced would only be Vampires, Wights, Wraiths & Spectres . . .

My impression is that the Player's Handbook intended to allow a save and this was either changed or lost track of . . .

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:04 pm

DOH!!

Serl may have a point. A bunch of other creatures will actually indicate when a save is allowed in the actual descriptions. Personally, I'm in favor *FOR* a save all things considering. However, I the more I think about it, the more I recall the original 'baddies' here from 1st and 2nd ed didn't allow for saves either.

I incorrectly assumed that the Saves were permitted in C&C for reasons that Beyondthebreach states.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:56 pm

A lot of stuff floated into the PHB from the SRD. Much more so than for M&T. The monsters were designed with non-d20 attitudes... so, I stand by my statement.

Of course, one advantage to allowing a save is the use of such monsters against very low level parties... but the overall effect is to severely weaken the threat posed by undead in general, which is not something I would ever like to see. I'd rather they were nastier, in fact, and when I'm finished with something secret, they will be.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:35 pm

I have to agree with Serleran here; giving saving throws to Energy Drain turns critters like Wights into fairly mediocre monsters. If a PC is 1st level with a CON prime, then they're looking at a roll of 15+ to avoid a level drain, less if the CON is 13+. If the CON is 16-17 its down to 13+ (!) almost 50% chance to avoid!

Nah, gimme Old School Level Suckers any day!
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:43 pm

Here's an idea which may actually please parties from both ends of the argument. Of course, feel free to house-rule as you see fit.

But how bout saves being permitted for when dealing with the created spawn of Wights and Wraiths (and give them the draining ability) since they are 2 HD lower then their other counterparts?

By extension, those which are *not* spawn don't allow saving throws and potentially quite scary.

What do you guys think?
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:48 am

Neat idea. I like it. Now, get to writing up that new monster... WIGHT SPAWN.
.................................................Omote

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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:57 am

sieg wrote:
Nah, gimme Old School Level Suckers any day!

Man does that sound dirty.
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The One and All · Post by **The One and All** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:23 am

serleran wrote:
Of course, one advantage to allowing a save is the use of such monsters against very low level parties... but the overall effect is to severely weaken the threat posed by undead in general, which is not something I would ever like to see.

I have to agree on that.. but it only makes me feel like CK'ing more... cause otherwise... isshh.. the next Ravenloft campaign im about to play with Moriarty is gonna be a killer!

Even more reason now not to play a Tank! lol

BTW, Thanks for the quick answers.

Beyondthebreach · Post by **Beyondthebreach** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:53 am

serleran wrote:
A lot of stuff floated into the PHB from the SRD.

Sorry, my brain can't seem to figure out what the acronym SRD stands for . . .

Gnostic Gnoll · Post by **Gnostic Gnoll** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:21 am

System Reference Document, which is a "core" of the rules from D&D 3.5 (and by extension the D20 System). Basically, Wizards of the Coast released this so that third-party publishers could create rules-based material for the D20 System under the Open Gaming License, pioneered by Ryan Dancey.

This is in contrast to what happened toward the end of TSR, Inc. during the mid-90s, when it began to crack down on a lot of material people had made for AD&D, in order to defend its intellectual property rights. A legitimate business decision, but (in my opinion) a horrible decision nonetheless.

In relation to the topic, I've never been fond of undead level drain: it is disproportionately more dangerous to higher level characters. If I'm a 4th-level fighter and I get hit by a wight, oh no! My bad day costs me 4,000 experience points. Now if I'm a 9th-level fighter, that's a loss of 136,000 experience points, which is a 34-fold increase. That's a lot of sessions of experience points lost to a single hit. And that's assuming I just hit 9th level. And since classes have different XP requirements, it hits some classes a lot harder than others.

I've always had a similar issue with cure light wounds, in that it does its job when used on a fighter but is practically "bring me back from the dead" if I'm a wizard.

The One and All · Post by **The One and All** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:26 am

Gnostic Gnoll wrote:
If I'm a 4th-level fighter and I get hit by a wight, oh no! My bad day costs me 4,000 experience points. Now if I'm a 9th-level fighter, that's a loss of 136,000 experience points, which is a 34-fold increase. That's a lot of sessions of experience points lost to a single hit. And that's assuming I just hit 9th level. And since classes have different XP requirements, it hits some classes a lot harder than others.

Wait.. you mean it's permanent? I always thought, from what I've read in the M&T and PHb that energy drain attack from Wight are only temporary, in other words removable with a Restoration spell?

As for the wraith.. I imagine it's the same. If it's not, might have to hourserule it!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:40 am

Its permanent, in the same sense that damage taken is permanent... until healed. Levels don't come back on their own, though... they require magic, or the regaining of XP. Its not like a 5th level rogue has a restoration spell at his fingertips (by the general assumptions of the rules.) Level drainers are a threat for mid-level parties, about level 5-9. After that, the cleric can usually just blow them away with turning, or reverse the effects. Unless you're using really nasty undead like spectres that drain 2 HD at a time, and they keep beating the godsnot out of the cleric(s.) Before level 5, its just about instant death since the party will quickly descend into ineffectiveness, and it won't take many hits to do that. Also, level drainers usually require magical weapons to hit them (there is errata about the "DR") making low level parties unable to fight back in many cases.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:22 pm

...plus that 4 HD wight has to *hit* that 9th level fighter.
Good Luck!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:42 pm

You cold also use a house rule of mine from 1E and 2E days. Hmmmm. I probably should use it for my C&C games too.

Anyway.

My rules was if you destroyed the undead that drained your levels within 24 hours of it absorbing your levels, you recovered the drained levels after your next 8 hours of solid rest.

Why? I look at it this way. The level drain is an actual trapping of a portion of your life force, or soul. So if you destroy the undead before it fully absorbed your life essence, its freed and floating around. Naturally it seeks out where it belongs, which is with the still living soul it belongs to.

So while you are resting/sleeping ( I suppose you could just go with staying in place for 8 hours or so) these pieces of the PC's soul finds and reattaches itself to the soul it belongs to.

Anyways, that is how I handled it, and will again as soon as I add it to my house rule document.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:36 am

Quote:
My rules was if you destroyed the undead that drained your levels within 24 hours of it absorbing your levels, you recovered the drained levels after your next 8 hours of solid rest.

Why? I look at it this way. The level drain is an actual trapping of a portion of your life force, or soul. So if you destroy the undead before it fully absorbed your life essence, its freed and floating around. Naturally it seeks out where it belongs, which is with the still living soul it belongs to.

So while you are resting/sleeping ( I suppose you could just go with staying in place for 8 hours or so) these pieces of the PC's soul finds and reattaches itself to the soul it belongs to.

I (and my many Palidins) like that rule. It makes good sence & gives a group a chance to make up for a few unlucky dice rolls

I'm in the "always make undead as scarry/nasty as you can camp" so have always assumed the harsh version of you lose it, its gone. Next time make sure your cleric or paladin is in good with his gods before going into the crypt.... To be fair I've had allowed a group to splash undead with holly water and hold the undead back as they worked themselves out of the room into a more defensable hall.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:01 am

I like old-school level drain: no save, and get it back with restoration or earned XP. The reason I like it is because there it makes undead truly scary and dreadful.

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:40 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I like old-school level drain: no save, and get it back with restoration or earned XP. The reason I like it is because there it makes undead truly scary and dreadful.

I don't mind the "insta drain" from Undead, BUT, there are a few things I like to see to go along with that.

#1: These monsters should be worth more Experience. An ability that instantly drains a level on contact with no save, is one hell of an ability! I say these monsters should be worth nearly 50% more than what they are now.

#2: If you kill the monster, after it's drained you of levels, you should get extra experience for that kill, it won't give you your level back, but at least you get some gratification.