How relevant is the D&D Rules Cyclopedia?

Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:03 am

I've recently run across a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia. How useful is it for use with C&C? Anyone CKs out there using it to supplement their games?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:16 am

I've considered using it with C&C but shelved it for the time being. It does have some good rules for skills, siege warfare, domains and other things. I would like to see a C&C conversion of the RC classes for an alternitive to the PH classes.

I'd love to have time to run an RC campaign but find myself wanting to C&Cize it and default back to C&C.
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pineappleleader · Post by **pineappleleader** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:17 am

I really like the Rules Cyclopedia (RC). A couple of us have thought about converting this and the Gazeteers to SIEGE. It would be a "monster" of a project. I'm still thinking about this because of the large amount of work involved.

The RC is a collection of the old Five Box D&D rules. It does not contain everything from those rules, but does contain the "core" rules that you must have. As it is a D&D book it can be adapted for use with other d20/D&D type rules sets, such as C&C.

The RC is one of the few books that contains a rather simple method of building castles/strongholds and walled towns. I found it worth having just for this alone.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:26 am

IMNSHO I'd rather have the sets but the RC is a good book. Even though mine has a funny smell.
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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:40 am

pineappleleader wrote:
The RC is a collection of the old Five Box D&D rules.

Small correction -- the Immortals rules are not in the Rules Cyclopedia.

The RC is probably the most useful gaming hardback ever produced.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:02 am

dcs wrote:
The RC is probably the most useful gaming hardback ever produced.

Indeed. The demand and pricing on eBay certainly seems to support your statement. Sheesh, I've been trying for years to get a good or fair quality book, but the prices have been outrageous!
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:15 am

dcs wrote:
Small correction -- the Immortals rules are not in the Rules Cyclopedia.

Chapter 15?

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:17 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I I'd love to have time to run an RC campaign but find myself wanting to C&Cize it and default back to C&C.

See, I'm the opposite. When I pull out the RC I find myself saying, "Why aren't I playing this instead?"

It has a dangerous allure.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:40 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
When I pull out the RC I find myself saying, "Why aren't I playing this instead?"

It has a dangerous allure.

I'm the same way. One of the longest-running and best campaigns I ever ran was a BECMI/RC game; if there's a version of D&D that could pull me away from C&C, this is probably it. Or maybe B/X, which I'm familiar with, but never actually ran.

Before I started running C&C I seriously considered running BECMI, again. Then, after I got the C&C Players Handbook, I considered running BECMI with the SIEGE engine grafted on. I still think that would work just fine and be a hell of a lot of fun. But then I decided to give "by-the-book" C&C a run, and see how it went. So far, it's going quite well. I'm running *three* C&C campaigns, now; I never would've watned to do that with 3E, which is what I switched from.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:52 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Indeed. The demand and pricing on eBay certainly seems to support your statement. Sheesh, I've been trying for years to get a good or fair quality book, but the prices have been outrageous!

Try Amazon Marketplace. I picked up a 2nd copy in amazing shape for $25.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:09 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
if there's a version of D&D that could pull me away from C&C, this is probably it.

Yeah. It is definitely, hands down the best version of D&D produced.

I'll be teaching my son RPG's utilizing the Red Box in the very near future. I'm wondering if it will ensnare me.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:56 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Indeed. The demand and pricing on eBay certainly seems to support your statement. Sheesh, I've been trying for years to get a good or fair quality book, but the prices have been outrageous!

Same here.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:23 pm

Maliki wrote:
Same here.

Several in the $30-40 range Here

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:29 pm

I used the RC as a sort of template for the construction of my races-as-classes method for my campaign setting, only because it was easier to deal with (one book) than the box sets. There are some really fun treasure tables in there, too, and some nifty critters. The section on dominions is worth owning, too, and weapon mastery, if one were inclined to give fighters a very severe advantage. I'd never play it straight, though, since I don't like some parts of it... but as a general "D&D tool," its damn useful.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:05 pm

Eisenmann wrote:
I've recently run across a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia. How useful is it for use with C&C? Anyone CKs out there using it to supplement their games?

Peoples can use the weapons mastery rules in it for my games. The system complements nicely Gary's CZ skills list.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:38 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Several in the $30-40 range Here

Thanks, its tempting.
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Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:44 pm

I just have a .pdf copy of the RC. I might try using it for a one-off since someone whom I recently snared into the C&C fold at first mentioned that BECMI was his preferred incarnation of D&D. I started in 2nd edition so I never really played BECMI; I've just read through it. I guess that whatever you find in any game can be relevant to C&C so long as you find a way to make the idea you're trying to get across work with the SIEGE engine.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:11 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Try Amazon Marketplace. I picked up a 2nd copy in amazing shape for $25.

Thanks. Good idea. I have purchased books from various Amazon resellers and have been very satisfied. The 2nd book listed, looks good and the reseller has a high rating!
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:33 pm

I've got another question. Is Unearthed Arcana any good for use with Castles & Crusades. By that, I mean, does it have material that it easily dropped onto the Siege Engine and is runnable pretty much as is?

If it's not, which is the best non TL supplement out there?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:41 pm

Hmm. That's a tough one. I'd actually say no unless you wanted to convert the Theif-Acrobat. The Barbarian is coverd by C&C but there could be some nice alternative abilities to use and the Caviler(sp?) is better covered by the C&C knight class.

Cnatrips are covered in C&C and the only thing in the spells section is a ok but would require conversion on the cleric spells. The new races are ok but not my cup o' tea. Maybe the magic items section can be used but I haven't looked at UA in awhile.

As to non-TLG books the 1e monster manuals are handy for getting monsters not covered by M&T and various web conversions, The 1e DMG is IMO a priceless companion as well.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:58 pm

The best non-TLG product you could hope to get is called The Arcanum. I cannot suggest it enough. Don't get the rewrite (Atlantis: Second Age) unless you have no choice, since a lot of the best stuff was cut, or changed significantly. You'll have about 1% of "conversion" since it already uses a save vs. attribute system, and it supports the "melded class" concept from the get-go, plus, its got a lot healthier "skill" system, and a quantitative ton of useful material.

pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:02 pm

Also check source like Abe Books (www.abebooks.com) and used bookstores. I found a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia for $5 in great shape at a used bookstore. I bought it on a whim and have found it to be quite handy.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:06 pm

While I dont use RC for my CnC games, I cannot bring myself to get rid of either of my copies.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:10 pm

The RC is relevant from a general RPGing standpoint as it is one of the single best, most complete fantasy RPGing sources ever produced (in many people's opinions). As for relating it to C&C, I don't think there's that much relevance for it. Yeah, there are some neat rules sections that could be universal (Domains for example). There are also some good idea generators in there for race-as-class and weapons mastery as laready stated, but with C&C conversion to fit the system will be needed.

I think the weapon mastery rules are decent, but generally too powerful for their own good. Like Serleran I have used the elf, dwarf, and halfling classes as a baseline for my C&C conversions of race-as-class, but I think significant work is needed to keep them in line with C&C. The treasure tables are cool but a bit antiquated for my tastes (I just made my own tables anyways, but based mine on how the RC worked in part).

Good book though, no doubt.

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:43 pm

Omote wrote:
I think the weapon mastery rules are decent, but generally too powerful for their own good.

Really? I never had an issue with them. True, a 36th level fighter who's a Grand Master getting 4 attacks per round (not counting off hand weapon if dual wielding) is a powerhouse, but how often do the characters get there?

With the training requirements alone the DM can control when the character has the chance to learn a higher degree of mastery. And Grand Mastery is far from a guaranteed thing.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:57 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Chapter 15?

Immortals rules don't make an appearance in the Rules Cyclopedia. Chapter 15 details the quest for immortality, but doesn't say what to do AFTER you become immortal. The Mentzer Immortal rules as well as their replacement, Wrath of the Immortals, detail the creation of Immortal-level characters and their adventures.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:02 pm

Traveller wrote:
Immortals rules don't make an appearance in the Rules Cyclopedia. Chapter 15 details the quest for immortality, but doesn't say what to do AFTER you become immortal. The Mentzer Immortal rules as well as their replacement, Wrath of the Immortals, detail the creation of Immortal-level characters and their adventures.

Ahah! Thanks for the clarification. I've only possessed the BECM and RC. Perhaps I'll take a look for the "I" part of the equation now.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:05 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Really? I never had an issue with them. True, a 36th level fighter who's a Grand Master getting 4 attacks per round (not counting off hand weapon if dual wielding) is a powerhouse, but how often do the characters get there?

With the training requirements alone the DM can control when the character has the chance to learn a higher degree of mastery. And Grand Mastery is far from a guaranteed thing.

True enough, but if the DM allows you enough chances to train, and you are lucky enough to roll particularly well, you might have a sizable advantage over people who didn't succesffully train. Of course I speak within the context of the RC game itself, regarding this. For example, deflecting blows is particularly beneficial in that game, especially if obtained early enough.

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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:50 am

Traveller wrote:
Immortals rules don't make an appearance in the Rules Cyclopedia. Chapter 15 details the quest for immortality, but doesn't say what to do AFTER you become immortal. The Mentzer Immortal rules as well as their replacement, Wrath of the Immortals, detail the creation of Immortal-level characters and their adventures.

Yeah, I thought so, but didn't feel like digging out my RC to make certain.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:13 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Ahah! Thanks for the clarification. I've only possessed the BECM and RC. Perhaps I'll take a look for the "I" part of the equation now.

The Immortals set is quite a serious reading for anyone wishing to build a setting starting from the planes and higher powers. Furthermore, there are lots of interesting bits on the story of the Known World, for example, the fact that "Mystara" (the name was not invented by Frank) is actually our own Earth during the Age of Magic, eons and eons ago. Which would "explain" the similarities of some cultures with our own; sort of an "Hyborian Age" setting.

Also, the rules governing the planes, the immortal hierarchies etc. are explained in very good detail.

The Wrath of the Immortals is a sort of "simplified" version of the Immortals set; it is more focused on the "clerics-as-agents-of-the-Immortals", while this aspect is almost completely missing from Franks' Immortals. It is surely an easier reading, but much, much less thought-provoking and inspiring than the Immortals Set.

Cheers,

Antonio

Troll Lord Games

How relevant is the D&D Rules Cyclopedia?

How relevant is the D&D Rules Cyclopedia?

Re: How relevant is the D&D Rules Cyclopedia?

Unearthed Arcana any good for use with C&C?