C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

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TwoHeavens
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C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by TwoHeavens »

Howdy, I'm looking at converting my group over to C&C. One thing we all rather enjoy is a wide variety of class options. So I'm looking for two things really.

What folks would reccommend for books to really be more or less comprehesively set up to play outside of the usual three core books, and what all classes are available and where they can be found.

The shop website doesn't do a particularly good job of explaining what's in what in many cases. For example I've heard, while looking for a Warlock class, that there's a Witch class which sounds interesting, but that thread referred me to the Crusade Companion, which doesn't appear to be a thing any more. Is there a Warlock of some sort? The thread I read seemed inconclusive.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Go0gleplex »

Crusaders Companion can be found here: https://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdf ... panion.pdf

I also have several additional classes and races I used for my home games that are rather different such as Blade Dancer, Witch Hunter, and Shrine Maiden (to name a few). I have my own Warlocke which is more of a Magic Swordsman type than the D&D thing.
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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by paladinn »

The classes from the Crusaders Companion and the Adventurer's Backpack are both of questionable quality IMO. And the Companion is 3rd party. YMMV.

I have ported several classes from the Amazing Adventures game that are pretty cool. The game has guidelines for using the classes from both AA and C&C.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by TwoHeavens »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:30 am
Crusaders Companion can be found here: https://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdf ... panion.pdf

I also have several additional classes and races I used for my home games that are rather different such as Blade Dancer, Witch Hunter, and Shrine Maiden (to name a few). I have my own Warlocke which is more of a Magic Swordsman type than the D&D thing.
Those all sounds really fun! Would they be in the Companion or somewhere else?
paladinn wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:00 am
The classes from the Crusaders Companion and the Adventurer's Backpack are both of questionable quality IMO. And the Companion is 3rd party. YMMV.

I have ported several classes from the Amazing Adventures game that are pretty cool. The game has guidelines for using the classes from both AA and C&C.
Really? Well what all's in the Backpack if you have it? Have you tried the classes from the various cultural splat books?

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Grandpa »

TwoHeavens wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:15 pm
For example I've heard, while looking for a Warlock class, that there's a Witch class which sounds interesting,
Here's the witch https://www.dropbox.com/s/zaav0322ubclj ... h.pdf?dl=0

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by paladinn »

TwoHeavens wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:59 am
Really? Well what all's in the Backpack if you have it? Have you tried the classes from the various cultural splat books?
Here are the Backpack classes. A lot are retreads of Core classes, and some are just weird:

ARCANE THIEF (Intelligence)
ARCHER (Intelligence)
DIVINE KNIGHT (Constitution)
FORESWORN (Charisma)
ETHEREAL KNIGHT (Constitution)
MAGIC USER (Charisma)
OATHSWORN (Charisma)
PACER (Dexterity)
PRIMAL DRUID (Wisdom)
RUNE MARK (Charisma)
SEEKER (Wisdom)
SKALD (Strength)
THIEF (Dexterity)
WARRIOR PRIEST (Strength)

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paladinn
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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by paladinn »

Grandpa wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:49 pm
TwoHeavens wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:15 pm
For example I've heard, while looking for a Warlock class, that there's a Witch class which sounds interesting,
Here's the witch https://www.dropbox.com/s/zaav0322ubclj ... h.pdf?dl=0
The Warlock class, as introduced in D&D3.5, has always been a tad weird, like a square peg in a round hole, IMO. After introducing spontaneous casting with the Sorcerer, WotC wanted to have a class that would not use traditional spellcasting at all. The class was built around the Eldritch Blast power, which was at-will but could be extended or embellished via invocations. Warlocks had a very sinister/fiendish aspect, and were not really options for "good guys." 5e has further muddied the waters by introducing not only spells but "arcanum."

The Witch concept, I think, was part of the inspiration for the Druid class. Tied to nature, using both classic divine spells and some arcane spells, limited shape changing. I guess it depends on whether you see a witch as a priest/ess or a wizard/ress. I'd be tempted to use the druid class as a template, give the wildshape ability a couple levels later or give it as a spell, and allow a combination of the druid and illusionist spell lists. Same HD as a wizard.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Grandpa »

paladinn wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:53 pm
The Witch concept, I think, was part of the inspiration for the Druid class. Tied to nature, using both classic divine spells and some arcane spells, limited shape changing. I guess it depends on whether you see a witch as a priest/ess or a wizard/ress. I'd be tempted to use the druid class as a template, give the wildshape ability a couple levels later or give it as a spell, and allow a combination of the druid and illusionist spell lists. Same HD as a wizard.
Yes, that makes sense. Here is the one from 2nd Ed AD&D: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aiy1zkkfr9omk ... h.odt?dl=0

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Go0gleplex »

The original Witch Class was an NPC published in Dragon Magazine in 1980, though even this was based on a prior work that appeared in the same magazine years earlier. It uses a lot of the Magic User stuff as a basis.

https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg043.pdf
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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Go0gleplex »

Full Listing of my Home Rule Additions for Classes & Races (because I like diversity and think the standard classes are too stagnated and most sub-classes and such published were just the same horse painted another color type stuff):
Animator, Blade Dancer, Church Knight (pre-ABP), Engineer, Marksman, Scout, Shaman, Shrine Guardian, Warlocke, Treasure Hunter, Witch Hunter, Mystic Warrior, Elementalist. (edit: Forgot...also added a Recovery Mage and actually playable Alchemist)

Bastini (cat-folk), Minos (bovine), Canira (canine), Dragon-Kin (my own version), Half-Ogre (original Dragon Mag vers.), Saurid (dino's), Tikbalang (horse-based on phillipino myth), Ursu (bear), Aviad (bird), Rodentia (rat), Sprite, Majiin, Grasswalker (rabbit), & Beastial.
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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by TwoHeavens »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:23 am
Full Listing of my Home Rule Additions for Classes & Races (because I like diversity and think the standard classes are too stagnated and most sub-classes and such published were just the same horse painted another color type stuff):
Animator, Blade Dancer, Church Knight (pre-ABP), Engineer, Marksman, Scout, Shaman, Shrine Guardian, Warlocke, Treasure Hunter, Witch Hunter, Mystic Warrior, Elementalist.

Bastini (cat-folk), Minos (bovine), Canira (canine), Dragon-Kin (my own version), Half-Ogre (original Dragon Mag vers.), Saurid (dino's), Tikbalang (horse-based on phillipino myth), Ursu (bear), Aviad (bird), Rodentia (rat), Sprite, Majiin, Grasswalker (rabbit), & Beastial.
Do you have a listing for all that tucked away somewhere? A lot of those sound really cool. I have a lot of weeb players, so shrine maiden sounds like easy bait for some of them.
paladinn wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:53 pm
Grandpa wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:49 pm
TwoHeavens wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:15 pm
For example I've heard, while looking for a Warlock class, that there's a Witch class which sounds interesting,
Here's the witch https://www.dropbox.com/s/zaav0322ubclj ... h.pdf?dl=0
The Warlock class, as introduced in D&D3.5, has always been a tad weird, like a square peg in a round hole, IMO. After introducing spontaneous casting with the Sorcerer, WotC wanted to have a class that would not use traditional spellcasting at all. The class was built around the Eldritch Blast power, which was at-will but could be extended or embellished via invocations. Warlocks had a very sinister/fiendish aspect, and were not really options for "good guys." 5e has further muddied the waters by introducing not only spells but "arcanum."
Yeah the patron bit is usually what appeals to me or my players, you can have some very interesting interactions.

Thanks for all the help so far y'all, appreciate the discussion. Any suggestions on what books are must haves out of what's available?

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Go0gleplex »

Check your PM box TwoHeavens ;) Link to where I have things squirreled away is there now rather than publicly available after three of my writings ended up essentially usurped without my permission or credit given for someone else's profit. I took a bit of umbrage at that. My Shaman class in the Companion, for example, was solicited politely with credit given...which was cool.


Whenever I hear Warlock, I immediately default to the Ethshar books by Lawrence Watt-Evans, particularly "The Unwilling Warlord" published in 1987. Though they are more akin to D&D Sorcerers in that their magic is done at will...but if they use it too much, the voice starts calling to them...so they either have to kick the addiction of their magic and no longer use it...or risk the voice becoming so strong that it essentially possesses them...and they end up flying off somewhere never to be seen again. Though if you're talking historically, a warlock is simply the name for male witches with the same powers. Where they came up with this demonic crap I have no idea...but someone obviously failed their research roll. lol

I've also encountered the term in old myths (after reading five library's dry of such things before I hit high school) used as a term for a War Mage. Which is why I fashioned my class as more of a magic swordsman type. The current Warlock class is more of a Diabolist or Daemonic Summoner if you go by the old myths....but that would likely risk knee-jerk reactions such as the D&D witch hunts of the 70's and 80's. Of course I do like the laws of magic put forth in the "Master of the Five Magics" series by Lyndon Hardy. Thaumaturgy: The Principals of Sympathy and Contagion (sympathetic magic); Alchemy: The Doctrine of Signatures (potions); Magic: The Maxim of Persistence (magic item creation); Sorcery: The Rule of Three (Mind Magics); Wizardry: The Laws of Ubiquity and Dichotomy (demon summoners).
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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by paladinn »

In the Amazing Adventures Siege game, there is a class called the Arcanist. Basically it's a generic spellcaster.. you can pick from a spell list for INT, WIS or CHA-based casters. The lists are a little different from the standard C&C wizard, illusionist, cleric and druid lists; but you can easily use spells from either game. AA uses a spell-point "mana" system which is pretty well done. And there is an option to make an "Occultist" class which could easily function as a warlock. The spells are a lot "darker" and there are rules for sanity checks and such. It's different than the D&D warlock, but it might work for the OP's needs.

There's also a Mentalist class that is a very workable psionics class. Lots of cool stuff there.

My sneaking suspicion is that the current D&D warlock concept came from the old Charmed TV show, where warlocks were very different from witches and were almost always evil.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by TwoHeavens »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:06 am
Check your PM box TwoHeavens ;) Link to where I have things squirreled away is there now rather than publicly available after three of my writings ended up essentially usurped without my permission or credit given for someone else's profit. I took a bit of umbrage at that. My Shaman class in the Companion, for example, was solicited politely with credit given...which was cool.
Much appreciated!
paladinn wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:44 pm
In the Amazing Adventures Siege game, there is a class called the Arcanist. Basically it's a generic spellcaster.. you can pick from a spell list for INT, WIS or CHA-based casters. The lists are a little different from the standard C&C wizard, illusionist, cleric and druid lists; but you can easily use spells from either game. AA uses a spell-point "mana" system which is pretty well done. And there is an option to make an "Occultist" class which could easily function as a warlock. The spells are a lot "darker" and there are rules for sanity checks and such. It's different than the D&D warlock, but it might work for the OP's needs.

There's also a Mentalist class that is a very workable psionics class. Lots of cool stuff there.

My sneaking suspicion is that the current D&D warlock concept came from the old Charmed TV show, where warlocks were very different from witches and were almost always evil.
Oooh. That sounds good. And yeah I'd say that's as good odds as any... timeline fits too. Warlocks were what, mid 3E?

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by serleran »

There are only two books of critical need, one if you find the flip version... the Player book and Monsters & Treasure. Everything else might be nice or interesting but, unlike many others, C&C is "complete" in two.

Note, a very experienced DM/CK could get away without M&T.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Grandpa »

serleran wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:36 am
Note, a very experienced DM/CK could get away without M&T.
Yes, if I had only the PHB I could run a C&C game using my knowledge D&D
in general

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by paladinn »

I'd like to see a C&C beginner set with 5 or so levels of each of the "core 4" classes (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue) and a CK section at the back with monsters and such. Or even 20 levels. The 5e basic set was actually genius, IMO.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by serleran »

Grandpa wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:47 am
serleran wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:36 am
Note, a very experienced DM/CK could get away without M&T.
Yes, if I had only the PHB I could run a C&C game using my knowledge D&D
in general
If we're going to brag, I can play D&D of C&C without any books. In fact, I have. I suppose then it comes down to how "rules heavy" or merely "rules similar" one might wish to be... personally, I find absolute maintain to be a hindrance.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Grandpa »

serleran wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:26 am
If we're going to brag, I can play D&D of C&C without any books. In fact, I have. I suppose then it comes down to how "rules heavy" or merely "rules similar" one might wish to be... personally, I find absolute maintain to be a hindrance.
Brag? No. Anyone who has played since the 70's could EASILY do the same. It would be hard NOT to be able to do it.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by paladinn »

"It ain't bragging if you can do it." - Dizzy Dean

I think anyone who has played D&D up through 3e would be able. People who only have played 5e might have an adjustment.

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Grandpa »

paladinn wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:04 pm
"It ain't bragging if you can do it." - Dizzy Dean

I think anyone who has played D&D up through 3e would be able. People who only have played 5e might have an adjustment.
Nice Dizzy quote. :)

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Re: C&C Classes and Critical Books for New Groups

Post by Captain_K »

Get the PH. Download some Domesdays from Knights of the Crusade site. Start there and let each player buy and alternate book if you really want. But with flavor and multi-class the base PH has most if not all you "need".
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