New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
I'm new to the forums, but played C&C in 2009 and 2010 until the group went their separate ways. Recently found my old PHB, and decided to pick up the CKG, and M&T books to start running C&C for my current group. Looking forward to starting a new game. Also I don't know if it's covered anywhere, but how easy (or difficult) is it to convert old AD&D materials into C&C?
- Fiffergrund
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Re: New but also returning
Hey Alden, welcome back. I just got back from a pair of long breaks myself.
The answer is: ridiculously easy. Two main things need to be adjusted, and they can be done on the fly in most cases.
1. Ascending AC. Same scale, it just goes upward from 10 instead of downward.
2. CRs would need to be determined for things like traps, poisons, or anything in AD&D that usually didn't have a level on it.
The monsters may not be 1:1 with the C&C versions, but their power levels tend to be REALLY close, so if you go with the stat blocks as written, you're probably not far off. You may want to check on that with particularly big encounters, but I ran Tsojcanth and others on the fly without any issue whatsoever.
The answer is: ridiculously easy. Two main things need to be adjusted, and they can be done on the fly in most cases.
1. Ascending AC. Same scale, it just goes upward from 10 instead of downward.
2. CRs would need to be determined for things like traps, poisons, or anything in AD&D that usually didn't have a level on it.
The monsters may not be 1:1 with the C&C versions, but their power levels tend to be REALLY close, so if you go with the stat blocks as written, you're probably not far off. You may want to check on that with particularly big encounters, but I ran Tsojcanth and others on the fly without any issue whatsoever.
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Re: New but also returning
Thanks Fiffergrund, that will be a big help, because it means I can use a lot of my old materials from the 90s. I'm glad I held onto my old homebrew stuff than.
- Fiffergrund
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Re: New but also returning
Yeah, you can use it *all* most likely. That was one of the core principles behind C&C when it was made, and a whole lot of us were quasi-fanatic about it.
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
- Buttmonkey
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Re: New but also returning
I'll throw in slightly more detail on converting 1E modules on top of what Fiff said.
1. C&C AC = 20 - 1E AC
2. Decide whether the 1E monster should have physical saves, mental saves, or both. This is pretty obvious from the monster.
That's it for converting monsters. Don't worry about finding equivalent monsters in M&T to use. Just use the stat block in the module.
3. Be aware that saving throws scale differently in C&C than in 1E. In 1E, the saving throws for PCs get lower and lower as they level up. In C&C, saves stay challenging as the PCs go up. If a 10th level NPC wizard casts a spell on a PC that carries a saving throw, the challenge class is going to be much higher than it would have been in 1E. The end result is fighting monsters/NPCs with spell-casting abilities and high hit dice or levels is scary, much scarier than in 1E. Whether this is a good, neutral, or bad thing depends on your point of view. You need to keep this scaling difference in mind when converting 1E modules that were designed for high level PCs. At low levels, 1E modules convert pretty much seamlessly.
1. C&C AC = 20 - 1E AC
2. Decide whether the 1E monster should have physical saves, mental saves, or both. This is pretty obvious from the monster.
That's it for converting monsters. Don't worry about finding equivalent monsters in M&T to use. Just use the stat block in the module.
3. Be aware that saving throws scale differently in C&C than in 1E. In 1E, the saving throws for PCs get lower and lower as they level up. In C&C, saves stay challenging as the PCs go up. If a 10th level NPC wizard casts a spell on a PC that carries a saving throw, the challenge class is going to be much higher than it would have been in 1E. The end result is fighting monsters/NPCs with spell-casting abilities and high hit dice or levels is scary, much scarier than in 1E. Whether this is a good, neutral, or bad thing depends on your point of view. You need to keep this scaling difference in mind when converting 1E modules that were designed for high level PCs. At low levels, 1E modules convert pretty much seamlessly.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.
- Fiffergrund
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Re: New but also returning
I can't believe I'm going to type this, but...
what Buttmonkey said.
what Buttmonkey said.
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
As others have said, the conversion is really easy. I run mostly old 1E or compatible modules and I just convert on the fly. There are some differences in spells, but those are easily handled with a little prep.
- Go0gleplex
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Outside of inverting the armor class...I don't even bother converting and just run 'em as is with no issues at all, the rare times I actually use a module.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
One of my home players, who never DMed, bought modules and memorized them.
So I moved most of the secret doors and sometimes one of the major treasures. We all got to sit there and have him search for a secret door, over and over, at the same location, where there wasn't one. My other players saw me smiling, then started laughing. He then said, "I know its here somewhere !". The conversation got more hilarious after that as he tried to explain that away.
My advice then is to make secret doors not so obvious, or move them around.
So I moved most of the secret doors and sometimes one of the major treasures. We all got to sit there and have him search for a secret door, over and over, at the same location, where there wasn't one. My other players saw me smiling, then started laughing. He then said, "I know its here somewhere !". The conversation got more hilarious after that as he tried to explain that away.
My advice then is to make secret doors not so obvious, or move them around.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
I grabbed H1? Hommlet and just ran it with my C&C Monsters & Treasure to hand. I really just did it on the fly without any problems. Generally if there are traps I just give a rating = to the HD of the main monsters inhabiting where the trap is unless more data is to hand in the module. Once you know the C&C core rules it is really easy.
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
This is all good to know, I'm glad that my older modules and materials are usable. As for old modules, I have always changed thing around; moving secret doors, changing treasures, rerolling monster's hit points. I've had players who know what's in modules and go in looking for a specific +2 sword but instead find +1 spear, or are surprised when a monster survives longer/dies earlier than it should.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Alden wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:26 pmThis is all good to know, I'm glad that my older modules and materials are usable. As for old modules, I have always changed thing around; moving secret doors, changing treasures, rerolling monster's hit points. I've had players who know what's in modules and go in looking for a specific +2 sword but instead find +1 spear, or are surprised when a monster survives longer/dies earlier than it should.
I take special delight in confusing these sorts.
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
I did the same thing (or was doing it before real life got in the way) for my girls face to face game using Keep on the Boarderland . It was easy to convert and run.Grandpa wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:19 amI grabbed H1? Hommlet and just ran it with my C&C Monsters & Treasure to hand. I really just did it on the fly without any problems. Generally if there are traps I just give a rating = to the HD of the main monsters inhabiting where the trap is unless more data is to hand in the module. Once you know the C&C core rules it is really easy.
Like siad before, flip the AC and go with it.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Plus, as I rediscovered when pulling an old AD&D module off my shelf (UK 6: All That Glitters), it can sometimes actually be easier to run AD&D modules than official C&C stuff. This is because of C&C's annoyingly incomplete monster stat blocks and stubborn refusal to calculate XP values. If you're using late AD&D 1e or 2e stuff, complete monster stats, plus the XP values are calculated for you, which greatly speeds things up. Just flip the AC and go.
From what I've seen, 5e is even worse, as you just get hit points listed. You need to have the Monster Manual at hand to run any encounter.
From what I've seen, 5e is even worse, as you just get hit points listed. You need to have the Monster Manual at hand to run any encounter.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
When I made a map of a dungeon, I also typed or wrote a facing page for the monsters on that map. I used a basic list of their capabilities: HD, attacks and dice for the damage, movement, etc. with space under each monster's HP so I could list which character attacked which monster for xp afterwards.
for example:
HD 1, AC 6, Move 9", attack/damage: 1 at 1d8. Size M
Orc 1; HP 4
Ora, George attacked 1
Orc 2: HP 6
Sandy, Grumph attacked 2
for example:
HD 1, AC 6, Move 9", attack/damage: 1 at 1d8. Size M
Orc 1; HP 4
Ora, George attacked 1
Orc 2: HP 6
Sandy, Grumph attacked 2
My mind is backed up... somewhere. But probably not over the rainbow. More likely in another dimension.
If I post too much just let me know and I'll slow down.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
One other thing to keep in mind is the spell casters have access to more spells post-3rd edition D&D and that holds true in C&C. So, if some of your villains in the modules are spell casters, take a few moments to insure they have access to all the spells they should have based upon their level as a magic-user/illusionist or cleric/druid.
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that falling mummy! What could possibly happen?"
- Buttmonkey
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Oh, crap! One other conversion thing I forgot to address is the 1st level cleric spell sound burst. That spell is an encounter killer for low level parties. 1E and B/X modules were not designed with sound burst in mind. 1st level parties can sometimes stroll through tough encounters with just that spell being cast. It's basically casting a sleep spell on the monsters and then smothering them with a pillow. It should be called euthanasia. The devastating effects of the spell are counter-balanced to a certain degree by how inherently loud it is. It is not subtle.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Great point. I've forgotten to do this a few times, and it really hurt. The bad guys that is.JediOre wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:37 pmOne other thing to keep in mind is the spell casters have access to more spells post-3rd edition D&D and that holds true in C&C. So, if some of your villains in the modules are spell casters, take a few moments to insure they have access to all the spells they should have based upon their level as a magic-user/illusionist or cleric/druid.
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Yes, Sound Burst can be an encounter ender for your nasty group of kobolds/goblins/xvarts. How do folks address this spell when running a 1st through 3rd level old school module? Alerting the whole compound is about the only way I can see to help counter the power of that spell. Thankfully, at this level the most any one cleric has access to it is twice per day.Buttmonkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:50 amOne other conversion thing I forgot to address is the 1st level cleric spell sound burst. That spell is an encounter killer for low level parties. 1E and B/X modules were not designed with sound burst in mind. 1st level parties can sometimes stroll through tough encounters with just that spell being cast. It's basically casting a sleep spell on the monsters and then smothering them with a pillow. It should be called euthanasia. The devastating effects of the spell are counter-balanced to a certain degree by how inherently loud it is. It is not subtle.
I seldom allow it for the shaman or evil cleric villains' as it can really end the PCs adventure as well. My players don't know I try not to give it to the opponents, they usually think they were quick enough to dispatch the villain prior to that spell being cast.
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that falling mummy! What could possibly happen?"
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
I've adjusted the number of monsters in a lair to make up for the ones wiped out by the spell. After it goes off and wipes out the mooks in the first chamber, a similarly-sized wave of monsters will rush in from deeper in the complex. The PCs get the XPs they've earned, get to feel like bad asses for slapping half the monsters around like the little beotches they are, and they still get a good combat challenge when the next wave shows up.JediOre wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:12 pmYes, Sound Burst can be an encounter ender for your nasty group of kobolds/goblins/xvarts. How do folks address this spell when running a 1st through 3rd level old school module? Alerting the whole compound is about the only way I can see to help counter the power of that spell. Thankfully, at this level the most any one cleric has access to it is twice per day.Buttmonkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:50 amOne other conversion thing I forgot to address is the 1st level cleric spell sound burst. That spell is an encounter killer for low level parties. 1E and B/X modules were not designed with sound burst in mind. 1st level parties can sometimes stroll through tough encounters with just that spell being cast. It's basically casting a sleep spell on the monsters and then smothering them with a pillow. It should be called euthanasia. The devastating effects of the spell are counter-balanced to a certain degree by how inherently loud it is. It is not subtle.
I seldom allow it for the shaman or evil cleric villains' as it can really end the PCs adventure as well. My players don't know I try not to give it to the opponents, they usually think they were quick enough to dispatch the villain prior to that spell being cast.
I have had NPC/monster spell casters drop sound burst on the party. It's nasty, just like it should be.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
That is as good an approach as can be. I like it. Dropping sound burst on a low level party is evil!Buttmonkey wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:10 am
I've adjusted the number of monsters in a lair to make up for the ones wiped out by the spell. After it goes off and wipes out the mooks in the first chamber, a similarly-sized wave of monsters will rush in from deeper in the complex.
. . .
I have had NPC/monster spell casters drop sound burst on the party. It's nasty, just like it should be.
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that falling mummy! What could possibly happen?"
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Welcome back, you're in good hands with this crew. No shortage of ways, means, and ideas.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
There are conversion notes in one of the recent Domesday found in the other CnC forum Knights of the Round table. 7, 8, or 9 I think.
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Why is this one pinned to top of page,?
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Did you mean knights of the crusade?
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Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
I'm new to this community and to C&C. I've been a DM for years. Reading through this thread is so encouraging. I have a ton of time invested in Mystara and would love to convert most of that.
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Welcome to the forum!
Re: New but also returning (AKA Converting early D&D modules to C&C)
Yes, Knights of the Crusade.
Welcome son of Aron!
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Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.