In the permanency spell one has to make a con save to not lose a point on Con permanently. There is no guidance of how difficult to make the save. Currently I'm basing it on the level of spell or effect that is being made permanent. For instance Protection from Normal Arrows is a 2nd level spell so I make it vs. 2.
Any other authoritative data on this?
Permanency & Con saving throw
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Not a bad idea, but it may be a bit low. A permanent 9th level spell would only require it vs 9? Or would you limit it to spells < level 5? Maybe make it a flat 5 because Permanency is level 5
You lose the one Con point for a month anyway, which might make anyone think at least twice.
You lose the one Con point for a month anyway, which might make anyone think at least twice.
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Yes. It seemed a bit low if one was making a high level spell perm. The Wiz gets to add class level to the save so I think I goofed. I'll make the save be vs. the Wizard level needed to cast spell being made perm. So the save for the Protection from Arrows would be a 4 rather than a 2 for the spell level.paladinn wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 3:11 amNot a bad idea, but it may be a bit low. A permanent 9th level spell would only require it vs 9? Or would you limit it to spells < level 5? Maybe make it a flat 5 because Permanency is level 5
You lose the one Con point for a month anyway, which might make anyone think at least twice.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Sent to Steve and he'll have this handled in 10th printing
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Do we really think Steve will get all this right on the 10th try? I know about "3rd time is a charm", but 10th try is what? I hope you're keeping a nice log. Traveller tried and I think it damn near killed him.
In the past we heard things like "we like keeping it dictate light and let the DMs handle it". OK doubts aside, bully for you!
To topic: By the time you get to 9th lvl to cast a 5th level spell (not many of these casters in many worlds?) and you want to make a permanent spell on yourself or something, I say go for it. The list of possible spells are small, not that powerful (ok a few are powerful, who wants a permanent prismatic sphere - guard some item?) I assume it costs some coin or extra work for spells beyond those listed and cost should be part.. aka making a +3 holy avenger for your buddy the paladin should be highly self limiting and painful process.
The CON is a MONTH, in some games that could be a long time to be down. Its also there to slow down the wizard putting MANY on himself or everyone he sees every day. That is good. Keeping the chance to make it a permanent loss super low I think is good. A wizard making a CON save is likely NOT a prime.
since most of CnC is lvl of caster add their level and level of defender subtracts their level to the DC of a general save (its about the caster level), then a level 5 spell chould have a 9 DC (the level of the caster required to cast the spell). Thus the 9th lvl wizard casting a 5th lvl spell to make permanent without a CON prime is going to need an 18 or higher! He's going to almost always loose a CON, even with CON prime its more than 50%. TOO harsh in my opinion. I would never do it without serious reward or a all time need for one of those spells (like water breath because your wife is a mermaid). So I would go really low on the DC, at or below actual spell level, still seems risky.
So what is the Cleric equivalent spell for making Cleric items?
In the past we heard things like "we like keeping it dictate light and let the DMs handle it". OK doubts aside, bully for you!
To topic: By the time you get to 9th lvl to cast a 5th level spell (not many of these casters in many worlds?) and you want to make a permanent spell on yourself or something, I say go for it. The list of possible spells are small, not that powerful (ok a few are powerful, who wants a permanent prismatic sphere - guard some item?) I assume it costs some coin or extra work for spells beyond those listed and cost should be part.. aka making a +3 holy avenger for your buddy the paladin should be highly self limiting and painful process.
The CON is a MONTH, in some games that could be a long time to be down. Its also there to slow down the wizard putting MANY on himself or everyone he sees every day. That is good. Keeping the chance to make it a permanent loss super low I think is good. A wizard making a CON save is likely NOT a prime.
since most of CnC is lvl of caster add their level and level of defender subtracts their level to the DC of a general save (its about the caster level), then a level 5 spell chould have a 9 DC (the level of the caster required to cast the spell). Thus the 9th lvl wizard casting a 5th lvl spell to make permanent without a CON prime is going to need an 18 or higher! He's going to almost always loose a CON, even with CON prime its more than 50%. TOO harsh in my opinion. I would never do it without serious reward or a all time need for one of those spells (like water breath because your wife is a mermaid). So I would go really low on the DC, at or below actual spell level, still seems risky.
So what is the Cleric equivalent spell for making Cleric items?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Every time I've given him something to fix it's been fixed. Going on 10 years now
All the world's a stage so play TTRPGs.
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Go0gleplex
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
We home-ruled this long long ago: I've never really liked the whole concept of burning CON for a permanency...even going way back. Since my group back in the 90's made note of our characters' maximum ages we burned a decade off of their lifespan rather than a CON point. The CON drain effect was always temporary though it left the caster at 1 CON rather than simply a temp loss of one point; it took longer in game time to recover from and required them to have very trustworthy guards/minions etc. which added costs. Being so vulnerable tended to keep the spell from being abused even more than when Wish popped up.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
I'm not dead. Not yet at least.
But it certainly wasn't easy to go through all of them to try and fix everything up. Clearly there were things missed, and I knew I wouldn't catch everything. The worst one to do was Monsters & Treasure, simply because the XP values for every monster needed to be figured according to the rules. Let's not forget missing special abilities, redefining yellow mold so it actually worked, and of course all the work in fixing up the treasures. I still have my pdfs with every edit I made in every book, and there were a lot of them.I do have a little more free time than I used to, as I don't have people I have to take care of anymore as a second job. So if the Trolls ever need me I'm game, schedule and personal time permitting. Part of me wants them to hit me up, because I'm not happy how the stat blocks in Monsters & Treasure from the 4th print onward don't clearly separate Resistances from specials. For example, an arrowhawk has the following line in its stat block.
"SPECIAL: Electric Ray, Darkvision 60 ft., Immunity: Acid (full), Electricity (half), Poison (full)"
It should actually be two lines, with Spell Resistance in the second line. I used "Resistance" below instead of "immunity" simply because using Immunity implies 100% resistance, and using the arrowhawk as an example that's clearly not the case for electricity.
"SPECIAL: Electric Ray, Darkvision 60 ft.
RESISTANCE: Acid (full), Electricity (half), Poison (full)"
One other thing I believe should happen is the instances of "Resistance to X and Y" be removed and broken into two Resistance items. It would remove an edge case I encountered behind the scenes when figuring out the experience for monsters.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Same here. I eventually made the Con drain temporary (3 months of R&R) unless they rolled a 1Go0gleplex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 6:19 pmWe home-ruled this long long ago: I've never really liked the whole concept of burning CON for a permanency...even going way back.
All the world's a stage so play TTRPGs.
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
I never like the idea of the Con reduction, but haven't HRed it. I like this ! Considered it yonked ! Thanks !Marcus Aurelius wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:17 pmSame here. I eventually made the Con drain temporary (3 months of R&R) unless they rolled a 1Go0gleplex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 6:19 pmWe home-ruled this long long ago: I've never really liked the whole concept of burning CON for a permanency...even going way back.
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Forgive all spelling errors.
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C&C Society
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Do they know that? Have you reached out to tell them? I'm sure they'd welcome the help.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
no problemaLurker wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:13 amI never like the idea of the Con reduction, but haven't HRed it. I like this ! Considered it yonked ! Thanks !Marcus Aurelius wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:17 pmSame here. I eventually made the Con drain temporary (3 months of R&R) unless they rolled a 1Go0gleplex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 6:19 pmWe home-ruled this long long ago: I've never really liked the whole concept of burning CON for a permanency...even going way back.
All the world's a stage so play TTRPGs.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Good idea since I'm finding stuff and am maybe only 1/100th as familiar with the material as someone like Traveller... Steve told me awhile ago that 10th printing will be the one where they drop the OGL. So would be nice to have as clean a "printing" as possible. 9th printing appears to be locked already.
All the world's a stage so play TTRPGs.
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mgtremaine
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Our house role was Wizards can only have X number of permanencies, where X is caster level. So an 18th level Wizard can have up to 18 permanent spells active across all things. (This does not count magic item enchantment that required a permanency). So you kit out your castle with 4 or 5 spells. You have a few on yourself and a few on your most important henchman... etc.. it adds up. It's not terribly restrictive but it does set a hard limit so the spell abusers don't run casting this everyday on everything.
-Mike
-Mike
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
Sorry to hear that! I hope things are better now. I would recommend reaching out to Chuck or Steve to let them know you have some ability to be helpful, but not too much as to drown you. They'll either say "yes"/"no"/maybe soon." I expect.Traveller wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:00 pmThey don't and I haven't. Life has been a bitter pill to swallow the last four years, which is why I stepped away in the first place.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Permanency & Con saving throw
I was told that the Trolls are bringing on a full time editor in the next few months to make the next printing error free.Bifford wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:14 pmSorry to hear that! I hope things are better now. I would recommend reaching out to Chuck or Steve to let them know you have some ability to be helpful, but not too much as to drown you. They'll either say "yes"/"no"/maybe soon." I expect.Traveller wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:00 pmThey don't and I haven't. Life has been a bitter pill to swallow the last four years, which is why I stepped away in the first place.
All the world's a stage so play TTRPGs.