Why does everyone seem to hate SR 4th ed

[angelius]

I dont find this game that bad at all. Sure its very abstract in its rules. But its not a disaster like everyone is making it out to be. I find it easier to run than 3rd ed.
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[DangerDwarf]

*shrug*

I dunno and tend to agree with you.

Previous editions of the game were fun, but a nightmare in some aspects. I think SR4 is much easier to run.

[Breakdaddy]

I loved 2nd edition, but never bothered getting subsequent editions. I, too, have heard overwhelmingly bad things about this edition, but it seems to stem from the D20isms that were added into this edition. Some people have serious hate for D20, for one reason or another.

[DangerDwarf]

Breakdaddy wrote:
I, too, have heard overwhelmingly bad things about this edition, but it seems to stem from the D20isms that were added into this edition.

What D20isms? I run SR4 games and haven't really observed anything that stuck out as d20ish to me.

The character creation is seriously teh suk! however.

[gideon_thorne]

*chuckles* Ive never been able to work out why anyone would direct that level of ire at any game. It is, after all, a game. If its not to someones taste, dont play it. ^_^
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[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Ive never been able to work out why anyone would direct that level of ire at any game. It is, after all, a game. If its not to someones taste, dont play it. ^_^

Seriously.

[Zudrak]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Ive never been able to work out why anyone would direct that level of ire at any game. It is, after all, a game. If its not to someones taste, dont play it. ^_^

Them's fightin' words!

(on other fora)
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[Omote]

I don;t hate it. Matter of fact, in some other thread I praise it as the best edition of SR to date. However, creating a character with just the core book bouncing around all over the place is a real pain in the *** ***** ******* ** ******. However, generally it's a good looking book with the right amount of material for a core product.

Overall though, and this is personal opinion I still don't fancy the rules.

.................................................Omote

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[Maliki]

OK, I'm out of the loop here, what is SR? Obviously I don't have any edition, but I want to know what everyone is talking about.
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[Orpheus]

Maliki wrote:
OK, I'm out of the loop here, what is SR? Obviously I don't have any edition, but I want to know what everyone is talking about.

Screaming Radish. It's a new RPG set in an old woman's garden, wherein the PC's play the role of vegetables seeking liberation from an oppressive regime of tubers and legumes who choose who will grow and who be uprooted. Think of it as Logan's Run...with vegetables!
Nah, it's just Shadowrun.

[Maliki]

Thanks.
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[Omote]

Orpheus wrote:
Screaming Radish.

Brilliant!
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[Breakdaddy]

DangerDwarf wrote:
What D20isms? I run SR4 games and haven't really observed anything that stuck out as d20ish to me.

The character creation is seriously teh suk! however.

This is, in fact, just what Ive been reading. I've no experience with it, so if the information I read was incorrect, then there you have it. More than one reviewer has panned the 4th edition with vague assertions that it was influenced by D20.

[serleran]

I hate SR4 for a lot of reasons, many of which are the continuations of poor executions of previous editions, coupled with an adamant fist to release the trappings of piss-poor metaplot. Mechanically, the system does nothing new, and does not evoke the same sensation of being multigenre like the original (sci-fi, fantasy, cyberpunk, pulp [in some aspects], and others, epsecially when dealing with The Matrix). In many cases, things that are "improved" didn't need it, and the whole has shifted from being somewhat "in your face" to "hi, I'm sup-pop." In a few words: the game has lost its soul.

[Omote]

DangerDwarf wrote:
What D20isms?

The Qualities section screams "feats" to me.

serleran wrote:
In a few words: the game has lost its soul.

I can't believe I'm going to defend this game, but this point of view is a bit harsh. Considering that from a pure sales point of view Shadowrun is the preferred Cyberpunk RPG in toady's market. Couple that with SR4 has blown SR3 out of the water in terms of unit sales already. I definitely see where you're coming from in regards to a the multi-genre RPG. That is simply because Shadowrun "found itself;" as the game is more then just a game, but wholly a setting unto itself.

..........................................Omote

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[serleran]

Quote:
Considering that from a pure sales point of view Shadowrun is the preferred Cyberpunk RPG in toady's market. Considering that from a pure sales point of view Shadowrun is the preferred Cyberpunk RPG in toady's market. Couple that with SR4 has blown SR3 out of the water in terms of unit sales already.

Sales does not equate to good. By that rationale, d20 is better than any other game, simply based on volume. It also means that d20 is the preferred method of fantasy gaming, or any gaming, actually, considering the genres it has entered since launching Modern, or the design of NWN (and DDO), not mentioning the impact of board games and wargames, through DDM... where it may not be the leader, but it assuredly is having impact.

You're also failing to consider the lifespan of some of these products, especially SR1, which was but young and infantile when it became revised SR2. SR3, as well, was short-lived before becoming outdated as SR4. Unless I'm mistaken, SR2 was the longest-printed version, and also, the most supported... but again, that does not mean it is the best; it simply means it had longevity. It, however, contnued the trend set by SR1... it challenged convention. That was the "soul" of Shadowrun in my eyes.

When a game sacrifices what used to make it stand apart for mass appeal, I say it has lost its soul. SR4 has done that, to me.

The attitude probably is harsh, but I really do find very little of SR4 that reminds me of its first footsteps. Perhaps it is all the stuff since those days which seem to have ripped it off... and the catering to it, like "that's alright, we have nothing new anyway. Thanks for the free publicity." I dunno.

[DangerDwarf]

Omote wrote:
The Qualities section screams "feats" to me.

Not to me, seeing as it is a holdover from the SR3 Companion book which was released in 99 maybe? Not to mention that it is just a version of Merits & Flaws from White Wolf's line, which most assuredly is prior to d20.

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
SR3, as well, was short-lived before becoming outdated as SR4. Unless I'm mistaken, SR2 was the longest-printed version, and also, the most supported

You are mistaken. SR2 and SR3 had similar length of runs, with SR3 edging out SR2 by a little bit I believe.

SR1 lasted 3 or so years.

SR2 6ish years

SR3 I believe had a 7 year run.

So, saying that SR3 was short-lived isn't right. Especially considering how bulky the system became with it's countless sourcebooks.

[Omote]

serleran wrote:
Sales does not equate to good.

Well I won't argue that, and I certainly wasn't claiming that! I was just stating that SR is the predominant Cyberpunk game over the past 15 years for sure. That's all.

Indeed, SR2 and SR3 lasted just about as long as each other inbetween print runs, SR3 was probably a bit longer as DD mentioned. SR4, however has been extremely popular and sold outstandingly well. I think they're already well into the 3rd print run.

I'm not exactly sure what it is, but SR4 seemes influenced by d20 in some way. My first thoughts were the qualities. They seem like feats, at least on the surface. Qualities, perks, feats, they're all essentially the same anyway. *shrugs*

............................................Omote

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[serleran]

Yeah, I wouldn't know much about SR3, as I only have the main rulebook, and then, because I found it on sale, by luck (not that I wouldn't have looked, but I thought Shadowrun had ceased to be when FASA went away, since I wasn't paying attention to "the state of the industry.") That's also about the same time I had to sell all my SR 1 and 2 collection (I will never sell RPG stuff again) due to some incidents that were without warning. So, some omy info is askew, but I still stand by my thinking on SR4, which I hear just went into 4th printing.

And, my final contribution: yes, Shadowrun has been popular for a while... there's a reason for that: Shadowrun 1. Without it, without its groundbeaking approach and style... well, we'd all be harping over Cyberpunk 2020. Hehe.

[Julian Grimm]

I thought SR was ok. Truth is I like that fantasy genre better for RPG's than I do anything. Though good pulpy/campy sci-fi is good for a break.

That said I saw SR3 and decided not to continue with SR after that.
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[Omote]

Julian Grimm wrote:
Truth is I like that fantasy genre better for RPG's than I do anything.

Yes, the fantasy genre is what I play, and probably prefer the most with RPGs. I have to say, though, that the Cyberpunk genre fits so well with the RPG hobby. I think that, like fantasy, cyberpunk lends itself so well to adventure sytle gaming, that literally adventures nearly write themselves. Shadowrun seems to do this particularly well with it's cross-genre style. Cyberpunk is the shiznit.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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[pineappleleader]

Orpheus wrote:
Screaming Radish. It's a new RPG set in an old woman's garden, wherein the PC's play the role of vegetables seeking liberation from an oppressive regime of tubers and legumes who choose who will grow and who be uprooted. Think of it as Logan's Run...with vegetables!
Nah, it's just Shadowrun.

Shadow Run 4th edition. Cyberpunk/Fantasy RPG.

Screaming Radish. Sounds much better than SR4. What game system does it use?
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[serleran]

FF8, of course. Food Fight -- Ate.

[DangerDwarf]

Omote wrote:
I'm not exactly sure what it is, but SR4 seemes influenced by d20 in some way. My first thoughts were the qualities. They seem like feats, at least on the surface. Qualities, perks, feats, they're all essentially the same anyway. *shrugs*

I'm still curious why apparently several people see d20 influence in SR4.

*scratches head*

The systems aren't even remotely similar and perhaps the Qualities could be viewed as remotely similar to feats but like I previously pointed out, Shadowrun had them before d20 was even out.

Not that its a big deal or anything, just now the stinking idea is in my head and I'm trying to figure out what resemblances are seen. I hate it when that happens.

[serleran]

Artwork, for one. d20 is a fantasy stylization of the cyberpunk genre. Flip through the D&D PHB and notice similarities between the images, and say, the picture on the cover of SR1. Its subtle...

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
Artwork, for one. d20 is a fantasy stylization of the cyberpunk genre. Flip through the D&D PHB and notice similarities between the images, and say, the picture on the cover of SR1. Its subtle...

Yeah, but d20 stealing the cyberpunk imagery doesn't have anything to do with SR4 being influenced. Although I will agree that much like most d20 products, most of the SR4 art sucks.

[serleran]

Quote:
Yeah, but d20 stealing the cyberpunk imagery doesn't have anything to do with SR4 being influenced.

Directly, yes. However, if people are used to seeing d20, or saw it first, the implication is reversed, and they assume that SR was influenced, when quite the opposite is fact. Of course, that's just a general category of why some might think its "like" d20. There are other elements, too... such as the ability to modify spells as they are cast, and having a means to create your own (not in d20 Core, but quite possible through "seeds" and supplements) and the concept of "archetypes" which are really only "templates" or, as d20 has them -- skill options (whatever its called where you pick a class, and then there's the little pregen skill/feat/equipment selected already.) Not to mention other things, which are superficially d20-esque, like skill specialization.

Honestly, I can't tell you much about why SR4 would get that rap, but I have seen a SR4 - d20 conversion and it was very slim... so the resolution/underlying concepts are close, but as I've only bought the book and read it once, I can't give any concrete examples.

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
However, if people are used to seeing d20, or saw it first, the implication is reversed, and they assume that SR was influenced, when quite the opposite is fact.

I can see that happening as some of the more rabid d20 people seem to think that d20 is the 'end all be all" and that everything else is ripping it off.

serleran wrote:
Of course, that's just a general category of why some might think its "like" d20. There are other elements, too... such as the ability to modify spells as they are cast, and having a means to create your own (not in d20 Core, but quite possible through "seeds" and supplements) and the concept of "archetypes" which are really only "templates" or, as d20 has them -- skill options (whatever its called where you pick a class, and then there's the little pregen skill/feat/equipment selected already.) Not to mention other things, which are superficially d20-esque, like skill specialization.

Yeah, along with just about every other game.

serleran wrote:
I have seen a SR4 - d20 conversion and it was very slim... so the resolution/underlying concepts are close

Eh, I wouldn't say a slim conversion would make the underlying resolution/concepts close. I can convert ANY game to another game in a few short phases if all I want to do is port a concept.

Still don't see any siliarities between the two. Now, I will say that SR4 is VERY close to White Wolf's WoD d10 systems, just using d6's instead.

[rabindranath72]

Never played Shadowrun, but now I am intrigued. Hey serleran, how can I identify the first edition?