I need monsters with class levels...

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:24 pm

I've thought about it a great deal...

tossed and turned in my sleep...

and whilst looking in the mirror and searching my soul this morning as I shaved...

...I dug deep.

Where is the wererat rogue 3/fighter4?

Where's the ogre barbarian/cleric?

I need these in my life.

I just need to figure out how to do it.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:26 pm

Not too hard. Just get yourself a monster from the M&T. Then, give it a class. Adjust accordingly. This makes for some very strong opponents though, so care is needed. XP rewards, that would be a bit more difficult.

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:03 pm

Ogre (insert level) Barbarian/Cleric

HD as class.

Wererat rogue 3/fighter 4

HD as class

I spose, for base ability roll mods, one can use the creatures # of HD and not give them a total bonus higher than that.

Simple. ^_^
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:38 am

Snik
A Thiefly. sword-swining orc (Roughly a 4 rogue/4 Fighter)

Size: Medium

HD: 8d8 (40hp)

Move: 30ft

AC: 15 (+2 Studded Leather)

Attacks: +7; Longsword +1 (1d8+2)

Saves: P

INT: Low

Alingment: NE

Type: Humanoid

XP: 1050

Special:

Darkvision 60ft.

Specialization: Longsword

Combat Dominance

Climb(P), Hide(P), Listen(M), Move Silent(P), Open Lock(P), Traps(M) as a 4th level rogue

Sneak Attack: +2 to hit, +4 to damage

Back attack: x2 damage

Took about 5 minutes.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:55 am

Mosh the Mighty
Ogre Warrior Priest of the High Hullahbaloo ( Roughly a 3 Cleric/7 Fighter)

HD: 7d10 + 3d8 (51hps)

Size: Large

Move: 30ft.

AC: 19 (+2 Platemail)

Attack: +12; Squisher, +1 Maul of Elf-Bane (1d10 + 6, additional 2d6+2 vs. elves)

Saves: P

Int: Low

Alignment: CE

XP: 1710

Spells Commonly Prepared (2 1st level, 1 2nd level): Sound Burst, Protection from Good, Hold Person

Turn Undead (M): As a 3rd level cleric

Weapon Specialization: Maul

Combat Dominance

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:57 am

Seeing as I still use the M&T format for my NPC's, it's just a matter of adjusting and giving them class abilities of what I wish to emulate. Quick, fast, and gets the job done.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:12 am

I've went from making NPC's to doing what you are DD. It works much better and you can get some nice baddies that way.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:27 am

If you could convert this, it'd be great:

Werebadger RGR2/Rog1: CR5;Medium Humanoid (human shapechanger); HD 3d8+1d6+16; hp 28; init +7; spd 30 ft; AC 18; touch 13, flat footed 15; BAB +2; GRP +3; Atk/Full Atk +4 metee (1d6+1/19-20, masterwork shortsword) or +7 ranged (1d6+1/X3, +1 shortbow)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:38 am

Werebadger RGR2/Rog1: HD 3d8+1d6+16; hp 28;Save:P, AC 18; (1d6+1), masterwork shortsword, (1d6+1/X3, +1 shortbow)

There's a C&C stat block ^_^
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:40 am

slimykuotoan wrote:
If you could convert this, it'd be great:

Werebadger RGR2/Rog1: CR5;Medium Humanoid (human shapechanger); HD 3d8+1d6+16; hp 28; init +7; spd 30 ft; AC 18; touch 13, flat footed 15; BAB +2; GRP +3; Atk/Full Atk +4 metee (1d6+1/19-20, masterwork shortsword) or +7 ranged (1d6+1/X3, +1 shortbow)

Well, you can convert it yourself, you know. There's nothing to it really. Just treat it like any other character.

I mean, what would you do if it were an Elf rgr2/rog1? You'd just make a standard character, right?

Well, the only difference here is you have a different race. XP might be slightly more complicated, but the core of building the combination is just as easy as any other character.

-Fizz

-Fizz

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:41 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Werebadger RGR2/Rog1: HD 3d8+1d6+16; hp 28;Save:P, AC 18; (1d6+1), masterwork shortsword, (1d6+1/X3, +1 shortbow)

There's a C&C stat block ^_^

And of course allow him to utilize the rouge skills at 1st level of ability using P, or M instead of the actual attribute. Combat Maurader at 2nd level as well as other ranger abilities.

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:11 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Werebadger RGR2/Rog1: HD 3d8+1d6+16; hp 28;Save:P, AC 18; (1d6+1), masterwork shortsword, (1d6+1/X3, +1 shortbow)

There's a C&C stat block ^_^

But...where's the other half?
(Amazing how C&C cuts down on the stat blocks.)
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Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:39 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
But...where's the other half?
(Amazing how C&C cuts down on the stat blocks.)

It is all in your mind...
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:54 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
And of course allow him to utilize the rouge skills at 1st level of ability using P, or M instead of the actual attribute. Combat Maurader at 2nd level as well as other ranger abilities.

*smiles* Ya, but writing all that down is too much like work.
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Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:33 pm

http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/conversions.pdf

There you go.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:22 pm

I noticed in Greyelf's hobgoblin example, the druid was weak because it didn't get wisdom as a prime.

Shouldn't a monster who has trained in a class get the corresponding prime?

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:25 pm

You can always treat the class abilities as having primes, regardless of what primes it actually has, or just define two primes and roll with it.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:35 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
I noticed in Greyelf's hobgoblin example, the druid was week because it didn't get wisdom as a prime.

Shouldn't a monster who has trained in a class get the corresponding prime?

Depends on the type of game one is running I spose? I can see pro's and cons on both sides.
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Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:42 pm

Yeah, like how hard it is for a goblin to become a wizard, but that one did nevertheless...
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:59 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
I noticed in Greyelf's hobgoblin example, the druid was week because it didn't get wisdom as a prime.

Shouldn't a monster who has trained in a class get the corresponding prime?

Considering that the only druid special ability that is tied to Wisdom is Nature Lore, I don't really believe it would be too weakened by having a P save and not M.

Besides, those critters that do break the mold are already exceptional by going beyond their racial norm. Even further excelling at it should be even more rare.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:21 pm

Also, if you think about it, its simply a kneejerk reaction anyways. A goblin wizard with Physical primes still is as mechanically capable of spellcasting.

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:33 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
I noticed in Greyelf's hobgoblin example, the druid was weak because it didn't get wisdom as a prime.

Shouldn't a monster who has trained in a class get the corresponding prime?

The idea is that the hobgoblin druid is going against his racial tendencies, so he's nowhere near the druid that another race with mental primes would be.

That's the rationale, anyway. Feel free to change it as you like.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:45 pm

The Grey Elf wrote:
The idea is that the hobgoblin druid is going against his racial tendencies, so he's nowhere near the druid that another race with mental primes would be.

That's the rationale, anyway. Feel free to change it as you like.

Now here is a thought. Perhaps the goblin can have a druid variant, more shamamtic, that is con based? The logic being, the summoning of natural spirits being something that requires endurance due to the nature of the forces involved.

Something to ruminate on anyhow.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:51 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Now here is a thought. Perhaps the goblin can have a druid variant, more shamamtic, that is con based? The logic being, the summoning of natural spirits being something that requires endurance due to the nature of the forces involved.

Something to ruminate on anyhow.

Even if switched to Physical...he'd still be as effective a druid mechanically. Nothing would change.

Because, even if in your head you said his spellcasting was CON based instead of WIS, absolutely nothing would change in the stat block. Same amount of spells, casting them just as well, etc.

The system doesn't share our hangups.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:27 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Even if switched to Physical...he'd still be as effective a druid mechanically. Nothing would change.

Because, even if in your head you said his spellcasting was CON based instead of WIS, absolutely nothing would change in the stat block. Same amount of spells, casting them just as well, etc.

The system doesn't share our hangups.

*chuckles* I dont have a hang up about it. Im just offering suggestions on how to address the concern, even if the method would not fit my personal style.

I'm all about helping people get the game where they want it to go. ^_^

Course, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea presented earlier about subsuming the class levels into the HD. Quite an elegant and all encompasing methodology. ^_^
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:38 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Snik
A Thiefly. sword-swining orc (Roughly a 4 rogue/4 Fighter)

*snip*

Took about 5 minutes.

I sit here and think about this set up. And I break into snickering when I imagine a player taking a swing at this critter and the slow dawning realization on the players face when the orc doesnt go down in one hit...
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:33 pm

I've always done this: anything that is not a standard PHB race that has classes follows the non-human rule, therefore, it gets two Primes, only, and it must choose from attributes. By this, and because of the nature, monsters with class levels are required to have relevant attribute scores, but only those needed for its class(es). So, a goblin mage would likely have Intelligence and Dexterity Prime, but it would not get Physical. His buddies the gobbo bodyguards have that.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:36 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea presented earlier about subsuming the class levels into the HD. Quite an elegant and all encompasing methodology. ^_^

I use it because my theory is quite simple:

If I spend more time making stats for a critter than it will take my players to kill it....

something is wrong.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:40 pm

Quote:
DangerDwarf wrote:

Snik

A Thiefly. sword-swining orc (Roughly a 4 rogue/4 Fighter)

*snip*

Took about 5 minutes.

I sit here and think about this set up. And I break into snickering when I imagine a player taking a swing at this critter and the slow dawning realization on the players face when the orc doesnt go down in one hit...

Rogo or even better, the group is fighting a hand full of "normal" orcs when all of a suden the wizard -in the back of the party yells out due to a dagger in the back, the group turns an there is snik smiling. He pulls out a wicked looking sword, pops his neck, and charges into the cleric & bard....

Quote:
I use it because my theory is quite simple:

If I spend more time making stats for a critter than it will take my players to kill it....

something is wrong.

To true & very un 3.e ish of you!
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:15 am

Well, I'll just throw my hat in the ring here.

As some of you know, I do the C&C Conversions for Goodman Games.

At times, I have to convert a Succubus/Assassin5 or a Vampire/Wizard11 into C&C terms. As to how I do this... there are 2 methods, that I switch between based on the individual conversion.

In the example of the Succubus, I added the assassin hit dice and abilities to the listed abilities of the succubus (i used the 1st ed MM to extract these and convert to C&C).

In the case of the vampire, I increased his HD to 11d12, and in addition to all his vampire abilities, he was treated as an 11th level wizard.

Why did I do it one way the first time and a different way the next? Well in the case of the vampire, in the D&D version, it only had 11HD, because vampire is a TEMPLATE, not a monster with set HD-- meaning in D&D a 1st level human commoner could become a vampire (... at least spawn of a vampire). In C&C, this would be a 1d12HD vampire (but missing a LOT of powers to compensate). As it was, the 11HD vampire was even more powerful because he gained extra fighter abilities (remember, a vamp is considered to have all fighter abilities as a fighter of equal HD).

In the previous case, the succubus in the D&D version DID gain extra HD from having the class added, so I had to increase her HD. So I just added the Assassin HD to her own, just like a Dual Classing Human Fighter5/Assassin5 would have 5d10+5d6HD.

Now, sometimes, when I made a monster have a character class... I didn't add the HD together. If it was a relatively low level creature, I would just either treat it as that class-- so an Level 3 Orc Barbarian would have 3d12HD (in which case I would also note the creatures "relavant": stats, and also their Bonus to Hit based on their class, because they did not get the +1/HD that most monsters got)--- or I would just increase their "monster" Hit dice (So a 3HDbugbear who is also a 2nd level wizard would be a 5HD Bugbear with the spellcasting abilities of a 2nd level wizard.

Of course, at the end, it was important to be sure that I correctly adjusted the XP ammounts for these creatures. A Succubus with a Death Attack ability is worth more than a succubus who just has 5 extra HD...

So was this helpful at all?

EDIT: I forgot to address saves. I think that I usually favored the class over the race regarding saves-- and also that I stuck with M and P (did not break it down into individual ability scores). Of course, if the monster was given BOTH saves as prime, it got to keep this. Thus, my Bugbear/Wizard2 would have Mental Prime. The Succubus, however, would have been M & P prime (demons are sick).
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I need monsters with class levels...

I need monsters with class levels...

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