What the...

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:08 am

Dead Levels?

Power levels are not high enough as is and player attention spans suck so....

Lets give gratification at every level!!!

WTF.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:12 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Dead Levels?

Power levels are not high enough as is and player attention spans suck so....

Lets give gratification at every level!!!

WTF.

Sir! Step away from the pile of shatner! Everything will be alright. We have the cure for this shat. Just step away!

R-
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:17 am

Hehehe. I love the article. It assumes every PC is allowed, and takes, PRCs, as justification for its BS development. My favorite one is the cleric...

"The cleric has nineteen dead levels, but this is mitigated by their one and only special ability: turn or rebuke undead."

Wrong, bucko. Clerics get lots of special abilities, like... oh, two domains, both of which have one or more special abilities attached, spells, domain spells (often as good, or better, than a wizard since the cleric can still wear armor), better attack, better saves (and not just one type, either), improved SR penetration, and a whole host of other things.

I love it when people forget all the micro-benefits a class gets, simply because it is not listed as a "special."

Oh well. I'm glad I gave up on that shite.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:24 am

I couldn't even finish it. My sig says it all.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:26 am

Next they will abolish levels 1-3 because those levels suck and it makes whiney players cry when the character build they spent 3 weeks min/maxing gets smooshed by an ogre it's first time out.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:40 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Next they will abolish levels 1-3 because those levels suck and it makes whiney players cry when the character build they spent 3 weeks min/maxing gets smooshed by an ogre it's first time out.

That's what we used to call "dead levels."

R-
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:41 am

Rigon wrote:
That's what we used to call "dead levels."

R-

LOL!

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:51 am

That's pretty F'ed up! "Instant Gratification" takes hold.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:19 am

no comment

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:15 pm

You know, the sad part is that I gave these jokers a chance.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:21 pm

To be fair, d20 wasn't "like this" before 3.5. Sure, there were powergamers and munchkins, and the stupid crap like five templated monsters... but that was the exception, for the most part (some companies seemed to make ti normal... ie, Mongoose.) It is now the rule. Why, I don't know, nor do I care to fathom a reason... I just know the current way D&D portrays itself is not the way I want to see it. Even these "changes" do not balance the classes... all the author did was give them some minor ability, which compared to the more powerful abilities of the two "perfect classes" means nothing -- it further separates the "balance" in fact, making all other options less than stellar. I also don't understand the logic: many people claim the cleric is broken, and that the fighter is perfect, yet they moan about the barbarian. So, which is it? The design is entirely askew...

Anyway, yeah. Thanks for the laugh.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:31 pm

serleran wrote:
all the author did was give them some minor ability, which compared to the more powerful abilities of the two "perfect classes" means nothing

I find the irony of the Barbarian being considered a 'perfect' class rather epic myself.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:53 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I find the irony of the Barbarian being considered a 'perfect' class rather epic myself.

Something tells me "Bobby the Barbarian" from the D&D cartoon (now grown up) would emote, "What the ****'s with all this ****, I just want to smash stuff with my club." Oh, and he'd say, "What did I ever see in Uni?"

EDIT: Thank you, DD, for the link. Glad I abandoned ship when I did. My Dungeon magazine subscription ran out just as I extended my Crusader sub. Dragon still has some issues left but that will not be renewed either. More C&C money is freed up.
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:20 pm

Ack....
Instant gratification & then some....!

Quote:
DangerDwarf wrote:

Next they will abolish levels 1-3 because those levels suck and it makes whiney players cry when the character build they spent 3 weeks min/maxing gets smooshed by an ogre it's first time out.

That's what we used to call "dead levels."

R-

Then the rule that if you character is unfairly killed by a harsh DM your next character gets double the current Xp at start up....

& it official Role playing is gone the way of the do-do..
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:33 pm

Lurker wrote:
...official Role playing is gone the way of the do-do..

Is there ANY role-playing at all in that sort of game? I mean, you assume the role of a munchkin who wants maximum power so that his die rolls are affected in ways that allow him to collect loot faster. That doesn't resemble playing anything other than yourself in a game, to me.

Imagining yourself as a person with flaws and strengths in a well-rounded way just doesn't enter into the conscience anymore. There was a reason EGG kept a lot of the charts out of the 1e AD&D PHB and put them into the DMG: to have players focus on character and using the imagination rather than play "Magic: The Gathering" with their character sheets.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:36 pm

Really it's gaming with any sort of imagination that went *poof*. Now it's all rules and stats to define things instead of concepts and backstories. I don't see 3e as forgiving to breaking from the mold to try something outlandish to save the day like C&C and even classic D&D allowed.
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pineappleleader · Post by **pineappleleader** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:30 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Next they will abolish levels 1-3 because those levels suck and it makes whiney players cry when the character build they spent 3 weeks min/maxing gets smooshed by an ogre it's first time out.

Too bad Assassin is no longer a basic character class. I might actually have one live if he started at 4th level.
Oh well...I no longer have time for such dreck...Back to C&C.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:52 pm

Yet, there seems to be some keen "interest" in these "things". Just give a look here:
http://www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums ... hp?t=13421

Really, no comment.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:51 pm

Gahh, too many munchkins playing eastern CRPG's these days.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:12 pm

I'm not saying this because I'm a C&C fan, I say this becuase I'm a fan of D&D and roleplaying...

This thought process is absolutely disgusting. 3e, (and dead levels which are sure to be a template for 4e) is no longer roleplaying, FOR NEW PLAYERS.

I played in a 3E game that had a mixture of new players and old. All of the new players were new to the RPG game with v3.5e. I played in that game for about 10 sessions before I moved on. A few months ago, I went back to that game and sat in on the session for about 40 minutes. All of the typical 3E garbage was going on. Looking in rulebooks for every conceivable answer, plus, bonus, etc, etc. After the game was over I was talking with some of my buddies about 2E. The new D&D players kind of caught part of the conversation and one of them injected himself into the conversation about with "how can you play that game, there's hardly any rules." He also said some thing to the fact that the character classes were so weak because there were no "bonuses" to anything. Now let me say that when I first met this guy there was real potential to him as and RPGer. Wildly imaginative, and tons of enthusiam. There was so much enthusiasm and desire to learn the D&D game that this guy went out and bought a bunch of 1E and 2E books. He told me that he hated the older versions of the game, just by reading over the books and never playing.

I may just becoming an old sop, but 3e dynamically and drastically chaged how fantasy RPGs are being played. After talking to this guy, he is completely lost as a gamer. I keep up to date with that same RPG group from time to time, and from everything that I hear, this young guy with all of the talent and enthusiam is completely lost.

In 20 years, there will be virtually no FRPG gamers like the C&C, 1E and 2E people anymore. This will be a great tragedy and a preciously lost art.

I have first hand experienced the decline of the role-playing game. No longer is roleplaying a requirement of the game, and that's just sad.

I understand the BIG company is trying to run a buisness and make money. But it's a sad way to do it. The people who write these 3E game were once gamers like us. YOU KNOW they feel our pain, but need to collect that paycheck as well. It's a disgusting way to loose a whole art form.

The 3E game, at least in it's "explosive mechanical/devices" element (ala Magic the Gathering) disgusts me so much that that even as I type this I feel ill. The game that we love so much has been corrupted to the point of being nothing more the vile swill. I hope the 3E game, as it is today, burns in the bowls of hell itself.

**** you 3E!
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:45 pm

LOL Omote, nice.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:38 pm

Omote

To true .........
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pineappleleader · Post by **pineappleleader** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:20 pm

Omote wrote:
**** you 3E!

Take a chill pill, Omote. Or you'll burst a blood vessle. It isn't worth having a stroke over.

IMHO:

These things go in cycles. There will always be a small core group of role players. Role playing is just too cool a human activity to disappear.

Most new gamers seem to come from a computer games background. They want a rule for everything and everything laid out for them.

If your "new gamer" has never been a DM, he may have a very rude awakening the first time he DMs. Most players just don't see how much time and effort the DM has to put into a 3E session. They also don't notice how draining it is to DM 3E.

DM burn-out is a real problem with 3E. But, because role playing is such a cool activity, after a rest period, where they do no gaming at all, most people look for a new RPG with less strain and get back into playing and then return to being a Game Master again.

This looking for a less stressful game is what leads (some) people to C&C. It is somewhat like the "Other Game" but does not cause the DM to have a brain meltdown.

Another thing I have noticed (locally), is that P&P RPGs are not as popular as they were. My FLAGS sells more board games and puzzles than RPGs.

I blame this on computer games and on 3E DM burn-out. There are still alot of people who would play, but fewer who want the hassel of running a game.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:20 pm

But you see, the 3rd edition of The Game is what has the most market penetration. The new players are gravatating to THAT game because it's what most people see. We are losing people to that version of the game, and because that will be the first version of The Game that the new people played, they will always remember that game with fondess.

We need to get the word out to as many people as we can that there is a better way to play... that there is a way to play the game without having to play a version that resembles imagination stifling video games.

Maybe I am too close to stroking out over this. But I hate to see this version of the art slowly die.

.....................................................Omote

FPQ
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:29 pm

Omote,

That is part of what my kids will do. Carry on the torch of "roleplaying" so that people can find out what keeps RPG's worth playing for years on end, and why CRPG's still have a ways to go to be its equal.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:43 pm

That is why, Treebore, you are one of the Eternal Crusaders. Pass on the knowledge of the good years so that in the future some body will know of the miracle that began the movement.

May your family forever be blessed with what you passed on.

Thank you, sir. Thank you.

................................................Omote

FPQ
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:51 am

I know my kids are going to learn C&C. They may see daddy's 1e and 2e books and try that and I may still have my 3e cores but that will be when I tell them," Kids, that is what not to do."
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:25 pm

Green Ronin did an Assassin base class that was pretty good, actually.

As for the original article, oy. Just oy.

I don't get the need to compartmentalize every singe aspect of the game. Heck, the over-reliance on minis is part of that, part of the need to quantify and have a rule for everything.

You can't measure imagination.

pineappleleader wrote:
Too bad Assassin is no longer a basic character class. I might actually have one live if he started at 4th level.
Oh well...I no longer have time for such dreck...Back to C&C.

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:20 pm

Omote wrote:
We need to get the word out to as many people as we can that there is a better way to play...

There is a different way to play. I think "better" is subjective.

C&C appeals to a portion of the market, even as D&D appeals to another portion. While we may disagree with D&D's presentation these days, there are plenty of people who have fun with it, and a fair portion who do the old-style role-playing. I was one of those DM's for a while.

I think that having different styles of play is okay. Not everybody plays the same way, and the key is that they have fun. So long as there is something for everyone, that's what matters.

WotC has the marketing machine behind them, which is hard to counter when presenting an alternative. Our job, then, would be to raise awareness, and IMO, do so without slamming the other guy. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:35 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:
There is a different way to play. I think "better" is subjective.

C&C appeals to a portion of the market, even as D&D appeals to another portion. While we may disagree with D&D's presentation these days, there are plenty of people who have fun with it, and a fair portion who do the old-style role-playing. I was one of those DM's for a while.

I think that having different styles of play is okay. Not everybody plays the same way, and the key is that they have fun. So long as there is something for everyone, that's what matters.

WotC has the marketing machine behind them, which is hard to counter when presenting an alternative. Our job, then, would be to raise awareness, and IMO, do so without slamming the other guy. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all.

Very true. I think the deck is stacked a bit unfair with a Multi-Billion dollar mega-corp backing the competition.
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