BtH vs. THAC0

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:33 am

dagger4192 wrote:
I failed to mention an important fact:

PSIOn1c$ @rE 50 bR0ken!

Alright dude. You've already committed one alcohol related offense by making BD spit out his tequila. If I get choked up on my whiskey again due to your funny comments, we're going to have to get the law involved.

Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:20 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Alright dude. You've already committed one alcohol related offense by making BD spit out his tequila. If I get choked up on my whiskey again due to your funny comments, we're going to have to get the law involved.

You wouldn't be offended by my posts if you knew how bad my DM was nerfing my Half-Fiend Vampire Warlock/Frenzied Berserker just because I took Monkey Grip. Is optimizing a crime?

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:27 am

dagger4192 wrote:
You wouldn't be offended by my posts if you knew how bad my DM was nerfing my Half-Fiend Vampire Warlock/Frenzied Berserker just because I took Monkey Grip. Is optimizing a crime?

You are killing me!

Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:31 am

I had to throw Monkey Grip in there somehow... I mean, what the heck is it? How do you explain it? Yea... my character just got to 9th level and the tendons in his hands have stretched inexplicably. The drawback is that his knuckles touch the floor, however, he learned to use giant-sized weapons now.

???

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:57 am

Picture Mark Hamill's character the c**k-Knocker in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back.

Monkey Grip explained.

Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:40 am

Man, I forgot about that character. You are right!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:26 am

*smiles* I just thought of something. In C&C we can call BTH.. THAC20
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IanTheMoxious · Post by **IanTheMoxious** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:37 pm

Very humorous Peter, THAC20, heh.

Sorry I have been out on my own post. I just got married over the weekend and started a new job. Frickn' busy. Thanks for all the posts!

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:39 pm

IanTheMoxious wrote:
Very humorous Peter, THAC20, heh.

Sorry I have been out on my own post. I just got married over the weekend and started a new job. Frickn' busy. Thanks for all the posts!

Congratulations. Or did you fail your saving throw vs. commitment?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:16 pm

Congrats ITM!
.......................................Omote

FPQ
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:32 pm

Congrats on the wedding, though the work afterward is usually quite fun...

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:06 pm

IanTheMoxious wrote:
Very humorous Peter, THAC20, heh.

Sorry I have been out on my own post. I just got married over the weekend and started a new job. Frickn' busy. Thanks for all the posts!

Yup, THAC20 will be the the new "hot-button" word in our group. Awesome!
.......................................Omote

FPQ
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:35 pm

Ian

Congrats but be warned the fun work afterwards leads to loss of sleep 9 months later!
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Storm Queen · Post by **Storm Queen** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:16 pm

I personally dislike THAC0 (and I've played a bit of 1E and 2E) and much prefer the 'AC as target number system' in C&C and 3E. If C&C had used something like THAC0, I wouldn't have picked it up!

For new players, definately go with the default BtH system. THAC0 takes a while to 'get', and the BtH system is far simpler and more elegant.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:48 pm

My primary dislike for BtH is the level to which bonuses climb.

For example, a 13th lvl fighter, specialized in the longsword and using a +2 longsword and equipped with a belt of giant strength (20) would have a BtH of +21.

It's a minor point, but I really do hate it when bonuses start getting higher than the die it is being added to.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:57 pm

Its no different than THAC0, only it "looks like it." The only difference is that you're reducing one number while having a different one as the "bonus." BtH brings both things into one number, making it one less thing to track.

For example... a 13th level fighter with a +3 weapon and WS and a Strength of 18 gets + 13 + 3 + 2 + 3 = +21. He hits an AC of 30 (the same as AC -10) on a 9+

In THAC0, he starts at 8, and (if we assume the same modifiers) +8. He hits an AC -10 on a 8 - -10 -8 = 10+. And, here, one must remember when to add and when to subtract, which is counter-intuitive that a bonus would cause a subtraction.

This minor discrepancy is due to the C&C fighter's +1 at level 1 which AD&D does not provide... so, if you remove it, they are identical.

I guess if you just don't like "big numbers" THAC0 is better. Not really sure 20 is "big" though.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:00 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
My primary dislike for BtH is the level to which bonuses climb.

For example, a 13th lvl fighter, specialized in the longsword and using a +2 longsword and equipped with a belt of giant strength (20) would have a BtH of +21.

It's a minor point, but I really do hate it when bonuses start getting higher than the die it is being added to.

It does seem to be a bit much. It almost feels like such numbers would feel more at home within a percentile-based system. I think that the idea of BtH is easier to understand from the get-go, but once everyone feels comfortable then THAC0 works well for me (not that I've tried THAC0 within the context of C&C; I would just play 2nd edition if I really had to have THAC0). Of course, I like DD's example of a "reverse THAC0." There always seems to be a way of making the larger numbers easier to handle with some type of simplification.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:18 pm

serleran wrote:
Its no different than THAC0, only it "looks like it."

Without a doubt true.

serleran wrote:
And, here, one must remember when to add and when to subtract, which is counter-intuitive that a bonus would cause a subtraction.

See, I still think the opposite is true. It has been my experience (of course, no means scientific) that players automatically do subtraction in their head and the number their "target number" is not the AC of the opponent, but the number they need to roll on the die.

For example, if my party fighter has a BtH of a 6 and I tell him the critter has an AC of 18, the first words out of his mouth as he picks up the die are , "Need a 12 or better" as he shakes the die, not "Need 18 or better". This has been my experience with d20 and C&C.

So, people are "intuitively" mentally calculating their die rolls much in the same way THAC0 works.

Serleran wrote:
I guess if you just don't like "big numbers" THAC0 is better. Not really sure 20 is "big" though.

When you're rolling a d20, +20 is pretty big.
Now, that being said, I use BtH in my games, not THAC0. I just don't think that THAC0 is as "counter-intuitive" as people try and say. It's become a catch phrase when speaking about THAC0.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:28 pm

Notice though that this subtraction is made alone he instead of applying it as a bonus uses it as a penalty to the TN he needs to reach, this is not the same as THAC0, as it still uses progressively higher TNs (ACs) and in the end he did but one operation (either addition or subtraction), without counting the ones he would have to do anyway (adding the bonuses/penalties together).
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:30 pm

Nifelhein wrote:
Notice though that this subtraction is made alone he instead of applying it as a bonus uses it as a penalty to the TN he needs to reach, this is not the same as THAC0, as it still uses progressively higher TNs (ACs) and in the end he did but one operation (either addition or subtraction), without counting the ones he would have to do anyway (adding the bonuses/penalties together).

My years with AD&D, we always utilized an adjusted THAC0 on the character sheet. So, your THAC0 on the weapon line had your bonuses figured in for that weapon. So, still only a single subtraction made, even using THAC0.

So, either AC-Bonus = target (BtH method) or Bonus - AC = Target (THAC0 method)

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:45 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
My years with AD&D, we always utilized an adjusted THAC0 on the character sheet. So, your THAC0 on the weapon line had your bonuses figured in for that weapon. So, still only a single subtraction made, even using THAC0.

So, either AC-Bonus = target (BtH method) or Bonus - AC = Target (THAC0 method)

Do you know how many people I gamed with who never used the character sheets in 1E?

There was a simple way to do THACO in 1E, but I am darned if I can remember how we did it. It would probably help if I pulled out the 1E PH and tried to figure it out again.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:49 pm

Treebore wrote:
Do you know how many people I gamed with who never used the character sheets in 1E?

Even without a character sheet, you still write info down:

Longsword, 2 attacks, 13

No officialness needed.

In my 1st edition days we never utilized THAC0, we rolled and the DM looked at the matrix.

EDIT: So, you wont find any THAC0 info in the 1st Edition PHB, its all in the DMG.

IanTheMoxious · Post by **IanTheMoxious** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:53 am

Hey guys, thanks for the welling wishing on my marriage.

Unfortunately, the work I was referring to was my new job as a respiratory therapist at a local hospital. However, some people have argued that the two jobs do have their similarities. For example: while doing my job at the hospital I often have to instruct my patients to blow on various devices and tubes (in a strictly professional capacity, of course.) I am not sure that I see the connection but, this is what they tell me.

Anyhow, I will be lurking around here whenever I get the chance. I Almost have that new group together in one night (wish me luck on that, more difficult than the marriage)

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:23 pm

IanTheMoxious wrote:
I Almost have that new group together in one night (wish me luck on that, more difficult than the marriage)

Good luck! Why is keeping a group together such a chore?

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:01 pm

Quote:
For example: while doing my job at the hospital I often have to instruct my patients to blow on various devices and tubes (in a strictly professional capacity, of course.) I am not sure that I see the connection but, this is what they tell me.

!
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IanTheMoxious · Post by **IanTheMoxious** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:13 pm

Its not really keeping a group together that is a chore, it is getting them all there on a single night for a game.

You see I am used to old school D&D games where I would have 6 or 7 players every weekend (games lasting for hours upon hours). This small group thing doesn't sit with me too well. It throws off my aim and the tiny party gets hit with way too many critters. But throng of goblins isn't a throng where there only 4 of them! sheesh.. I miss the armies of critters I could throw out and expect the party (mostly) to make it through... sniff...