Paizo no longer publishing Dragon or Dungeon mags

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:22 pm

Its true. Go check out the news at Paizo.com

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:41 pm

Wow, another ICON of gaming (whether any body really liked it anymore or not) is gone.

No Dragon magazine...

No Dungeon magazine...

Crazy.

...............................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:44 pm

Heh, maybe WotC got tired of people advertising in "their mag." Sort of like a way to quash opposition. Not sad about it.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:50 pm

I let my subscriptions lapse after d20 came out. I've picked up a few here and there, primarily Duneon for the Greyhawk maps, otherwise I haven't been a fan of the publications.

Still seems kinda weird to have them gone.

Wonder why the wizard's are pulling the license? The conspiracy theorist in me says because they are disgruntled that Dungeon has become a regular Greyhawk source.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:35 pm

We're talking about this over at The Acaeum as well. I'm going to repeat here what I said there regarding this.

I wrote:
I don't see it as a crap decision since Dragon after 250 didn't support the real Dungeons & Dragons game, but that monstrosity whose popularity is only due to name recognition. Dragon's departure allows someone else that gives a damn about the real game to fill that void, and that's how I see it. For example, this could be an opportunity for The Crusader to step up and fill that niche, assuming the trolls can get on a regular production schedule. Or Inquest could create a second magazine.

As for Dragon and Dungeon, anything from issue 251 and up of the former is of little to no consequence to me (d20 crap) and I never bothered with the latter at all. I have all the Dragon issues up to 250 in PDF, and most of them I've never read. So I've got a lifetime's worth of reading that I can do, without needing anything new.

Oh...just to add this little tidbit. I'd like to think they ended the magazines simply because their atrophied imaginations couldn't keep up.

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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:43 pm

As I mentioned on EN World, unlike most everyone else there, I don't consider this a bad thing.

With rare exceptions (Maure Castle issues), I haven't been buying or reading Dragon or Dungeon for years, now. (I used to subscribe.) With Paizo partnering with Necromancer, and Paizo being freed from whatever constraints their contract with WotC imposed, I'm hoping to see some Paizo products that hold more interest for me.

I have no comment on the WotC online thing, other than to say I'm not interested at all and don't care what they do with it.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:45 pm

It does bode poor for the future of Greyhawk, however, as it was, in a sense, kept "alive" from the hand of Erik. That avenue has been, or will be, killed.. and with it, the last nail in the coffin comes. Greyhawk is over, folks. Long live Yggsburgh!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:53 pm

Its a bit odd when you consider that WotC has within the past year or so been producing modules again.

Lets kill Dungeon and then they'll come to us!

The conspiracy theories continue!

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:56 pm

Yeah, like sentiments here too. I subscribe to Dungeon for the "Greyhawk" content, and the Maure Castle levels. In Dungoen, there were some need general campaign articles in the back of that mag which I liked a great deal, but otherwise.. blah, I just don't care that much. I'm certainly not going to subscribe to any online magazine.

..............................................Omote

FPQ
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Traveller wrote:
We're talking about this over at The Acaeum as well. I'm going to repeat here what I said there regarding this.

Have you got the Chapel of Silence in a pdf (issue 50)? How about

Temple of Posiedon (issue 46). If so, I would really love a copy of those 2 adventures.

Brian
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:42 pm

Omote wrote:
Yeah, like sentiments here too. I subscribe to Dungeon for the "Greyhawk" content, and the Maure Castle levels. In Dungoen, there were some need general campaign articles in the back of that mag which I liked a great deal, but otherwise.. blah, I just don't care that much. I'm certainly not going to subscribe to any online magazine.

..............................................Omote

FPQ

Exactly. My subscription for Dungeon just ran out and I just checked my account to see that Dragon only has 3 more issues left, so it will run out 1 issue shy of the end. No big loss -- I've only been reading the comics in Dragon now and Dungeon adventures are sullied by the stat bloat. Even the 3e players I know stopped reading Dragon over a year ago. Sad.

Serl, Greyhawk died in 1987. The 2e and subsequent versions are "undead". Not really, but most of it pales in comparison to the 1e and earlier material.

My prediction? 3e/3.5e will continue to nosedive, 4e will bomb, and Hasbro will pull WotC out of RPG's altogether, focusing on mini's and their other more profitable lines.

Paizo is better suited to providing the industry with the materials they've been working on and staying away from the suits at Hasbro/WotC. I don't know that I will buy the Pathfinder series, but I like Paizo as a company. They're good peeps.
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:14 pm

Shocking.

Even though I haven't played 3e in ages, I've still mined Dragon for ideas and content, and have really enjoyed their more recent issues.

That the flagship magazine for D&D will be no more is terrible. What of the symbolic value?! Of the legacy?!

I wonder if we'll see more unofficial mags again, as there were in the past

From the Paizo announcement:

"Wizards of the Coast will be moving the kind of content currently found in Dragon and Dungeon to an online model."

That is sickening.... online content disappears, whereas paper, if handled properly, lasts for centuries.

Since when did WotC the wise abandon reason for madness...

At least we have the Crusader.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:21 pm

Another reason for me to hate WoTC and the monstrosity called d20. I really should start a protest forum/group.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:28 pm

angelius wrote:
Another reason for me to hate WoTC and the monstrosity called d20. I really should start a protest forum/group.

Oh! How about

People Incensed with Mismanaged Products Society

We could be P.I.M.P.S.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:24 pm

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
That the flagship magazine for D&D will be no more is terrible. What of the symbolic value?! Of the legacy?!

Thats what I dislike about it. I bear no love for either mag since d20. Not knocking the job Paizo has done, just the system the mags use. But having them gone?

Kinda disturbing for some odd reason. The symbolic value, the legacy.

Hmmm. *shrug*

Never thought I'd say that. Heh.

Lhorgrim · Post by **Lhorgrim** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:44 pm

This isn't exactly how I expected to make my debut on these boards, but this is a topic I feel qualified to post about.

I recognize a few of the posters here from the ENworld forums, and I've already posted over there about the loss of Dungeon and Dragon. I'm going to miss the magazines a great deal. It isn't that I used much from them, I haven't been a subscriber for years, but they are a part of my childhood. I started reading Dragon in the 80's, and Dungeon in the late days of 2E. It just feels wrong to me that those magazines won't be published anymore by anyone.

The positive is that I had given up on D20 some time ago, so I won't be missing out on any particularly useful content.

I was excited when I heard about C&C, and I pre-ordered the signed collector box set when it came out. Mine is number 123 of 300. I was intrigued, but I couldn't find anyone to play with in my area (middle of nowhere KY) so I put it on the gaming shelf.

I read a thread about C&C on ENworld a few days ago, and it re-awakened my interest. I got the collector set back down and looked through it. I realized that this system is exactly what I've been needing to get fun back into my gaming. I ordered the Players Handbook and Monsters and Treasure yesterday, and once I get a chance to learn the system (mainly the differences between the box and the books) I'm going to start trying to recruit/teach some new gamers. The super simple ruleset seems custom made for teaching beginning gamers, so maybe I'll be able to get a group together. If that fails, my son just turned four so maybe I can have him playing in a year or two.
Anyway, it's nice to be here and I hope to be an active poster after I get the rule books and can make some informed posts.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:10 pm

C&C is a great intro to new players I think. Rules-lite, so new players dont know any better but to trust the DM (like in the old days).
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:08 am

It is saddening but not suprising. But we have the Crusader which is the decendant of Dragon in a way. Just like C&C is D&D's true decendant. Long live the next generation of true gamers!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:11 am

One of the coolest things about C&C is you can start as simple as you want to, and then add complexity as you get comfortable enough to do so.

I love Dungeon mag and have been finding Dragon was getting very useful again, despite it being for 3E. So I am very sad to see them go. Fortunately it looks like Paizo is continuing to at least do Dungeon type products with their Pathfinder and Game Mastery Adventures lines.

I will be seriously surprised if WOTC gets me interested in this on line subscription thing they are doing as a replacement for the magazines.

The only thing about it that interests me is the stuff they talked about to support and improve gaming on line.

I am still very saddened to see something that I so strongly tie with the whole "D&D experience" going the way of the Wooly Mammoth.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:37 am

Another thing that surprised me. I went to the WotC forums (something I never do) in hopes of discovering some sort of non-ambiguous answer as to why the license was not renewed. What I found was a 7 page thread of basically "f**k You WotC, your products suck and now you killed the good ones".

Didn't expect that at such a fanboy haven.

Still no answers though.

First they didn't allow CMP to renew their license. Now Paizo. I'm curious to see if the trend continues. I know MWP has a license for Dragonlance, I wonder if that will expire as well. Any other companies with IP license?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:21 am

I'm not into fear/rumormongering but it almost looks like they are gearing up for something.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:24 am

Lhorgrim wrote:
This isn't exactly how I expected to make my debut on these boards, but this is a topic I feel qualified to post about.

I recognize a few of the posters here from the ENworld forums, and I've already posted over there about the loss of Dungeon and Dragon. I'm going to miss the magazines a great deal. It isn't that I used much from them, I haven't been a subscriber for years, but they are a part of my childhood. I started reading Dragon in the 80's, and Dungeon in the late days of 2E. It just feels wrong to me that those magazines won't be published anymore by anyone.

The positive is that I had given up on D20 some time ago, so I won't be missing out on any particularly useful content.

I was excited when I heard about C&C, and I pre-ordered the signed collector box set when it came out. Mine is number 123 of 300. I was intrigued, but I couldn't find anyone to play with in my area (middle of nowhere KY) so I put it on the gaming shelf.

I read a thread about C&C on ENworld a few days ago, and it re-awakened my interest. I got the collector set back down and looked through it. I realized that this system is exactly what I've been needing to get fun back into my gaming. I ordered the Players Handbook and Monsters and Treasure yesterday, and once I get a chance to learn the system (mainly the differences between the box and the books) I'm going to start trying to recruit/teach some new gamers. The super simple ruleset seems custom made for teaching beginning gamers, so maybe I'll be able to get a group together. If that fails, my son just turned four so maybe I can have him playing in a year or two.
Anyway, it's nice to be here and I hope to be an active poster after I get the rule books and can make some informed posts.

Great post, Lhorgrim. And welcome to the Crusade!!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:28 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I'm not into fear/rumormongering but it almost looks like they are gearing up for something.

They are doing this big on line thing. Dungeon/Dragon type content, lots of support for on line gaming, and much more.

All for a fee, of course.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:37 am

Treebore wrote:
They are doing this big on line thing. Dungeon/Dragon type content, lots of support for on line gaming, and much more.

All for a fee, of course.

See. I don't buy that. If so, then why no screenshots, why no previews, why just "this IP is ours!" type stuff? There's no need to shut down the mags to do some "premium content" crap web page.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:54 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
See. I don't buy that. If so, then why no screenshots, why no previews, why just "this IP is ours!" type stuff? There's no need to shut down the mags to do some "premium content" crap web page.

Yeah, it would be nice if WOTC was saying something about the future of the magazines content, why they wanted it shut down, etc...

Only Paizo has said anything.

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:59 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
First they didn't allow CMP to renew their license. Now Paizo. I'm curious to see if the trend continues. I know MWP has a license for Dragonlance, I wonder if that will expire as well. Any other companies with IP license?

The Ravenloft license wasn't renewed either. While that was a little while ago, it's not so long as to be unrelated.

And I have to say, the decision on Dragon and Dungeon blows. They were staples of D&D and the RPG industry. Truly, this is an end to an era.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:03 am

There are lucrative licenses, but they are all CRPGs.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:07 am

Wasn't WoTC supposed to push some "D&D Insider" package? If that's the case then I'm sure that they're trying to bundle anything that would've been in Dragon or Dungeon in there in an online format to make that whole scheme seem worth it. This may be the first steps in an "OGL retreat." Whereby they'll bring anything concerning D&D back into their own company to have a little more effect on the brand. Who knows? Maybe C&C and True 20 are having a small effect on WoTC like the micro brews did to Anheuser Busch back in the 90's: Not a huge threat, but enough to affect their strategy a little.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:14 am

No, no. See, if you're going to go all conspiracy, I've got it nailed. Here's the scoop from Snopes.

Paizo, and more obviously, Erik Mona is known for his attempts to keep Greyhawk "thriving." Paizo and Necromancer Games have just announced a partnership. Necromancer Games has been associated with Troll Lord Games, both in collaboration (some authors, notably EGG and Bowbe, have done work for both companies) and publishing. Gary Gygax is a known advocate of Troll Lord Games, as he has numerous projects releases via them.

So, its really all about keeping Greyhawk away from Gary, so WotC can publish "the one true version," and also, the "last and final word" on it, official-like, before walking away and leaving it to flounder.

Yep, that's the truth. I saw it on this here forum, after I typed it.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:17 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
The Ravenloft license wasn't renewed either. While that was a little while ago, it's not so long as to be unrelated.

Interesting. Never was that big into Ravenloft so didn't know that.

On a side note. After reading on Paizo's site, I'm actually kinda curious about Pathfinder so will probably subscribe.

Yet another shock to me.