Two-Weapon Fighting question

erc1971 · Post by **erc1971** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:57 pm

the rule books states as follows when it comes to 2-weapon fighting (2nd printing)...

The character is allowed to swing with both weapons, thus gaining two attacks in a single round, but the attack with the primary hand is at -3 and the attack with the off hand is at -6. These penalties are affected by the characer's dexterity modifier. The characters strength modifier only applies to damage inflicted.

This is a little confusing. Do I use my DEX mod to reduce the -3 and -6 penalties AND add any STR modifier to hit as normal? Or, do I use my DEX mod to reduce the -3 and -6 penalties and gain no bonus to hit due to high STR?

Thanks,

Eric

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:23 pm

BtB, utilized Dex as the to hit modifier. If successful, Str modifies the damage roll.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:23 pm

Use DEX modifiers to off-set the -3/-6 penalty. STR ONLY modifies damage inflicted when fighting w/ 2 weapons, and doesn't further affect to hit bonuses.

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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:11 pm

Makes alot of sense also if you think about it. two weapon fighting would absolutely rely on precision and dexterity.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:29 pm

concobar wrote:
Makes alot of sense also if you think about it. two weapon fighting would absolutely rely on precision and dexterity.

True, but I think if being realistic is a desired goal that stength would play a factor in hitting accurately as well as "hard". Especially with larger weapons like the bearded axe, bastard sword, the heavier exes, etc...

They may weigh 8 pounds or so, but when you start swinging them around with enough power to hurt someone, they become a lot heavier due to kinetic energy, etc...

So if I were desirous of "realism" I would go so far as to say both your bonus to hit due to dex and due to strength off sets the -3/-6.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:37 am

Dexterity, magical adjustments, and any relevant special ability, such as weapon specialization, or a backstab, all apply to the use of "Florentine fighting." This means a high Dex thief that gets you from behind can kick your mule in no time. It also means a decent Dex fighter using small weapons as a specialty is rather naughty, especially as he starts getting additional attacks, easily off-setting the inherent penalty by pure BtH.

Strength is not a factor to hit in this case, but it is always a factor in damage delivered with melee weapons.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:49 pm

Quote:
all apply to the use of "Florentine fighting." This means a high Dex thief that gets you from behind can kick your mule in no time. It also means a decent Dex fighter using small weapons as a specialty is rather naughty, especially as he starts getting additional attacks, easily off-setting the inherent penalty by pure BtH.

Tooooo true!

I've never liked the idea of anyone swinging 2 bastard swords or great axes. (which I saw in one of my few 3.e games) which take both strength & dex to use well. But with more relistic 2 hand fighting the weapons should be lighter. With light weapons if you swing toooooo hard the move leaves you of balance & in a bad place!
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mount sky · Post by **mount sky** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:12 pm

You can fight two-weapon with just about anything that's light enough to be used one-handed. Bastard swords are pretty hard to use one-handed in real life, but it's been a longstanding DnDism that you can use them either one or two-handed. Also, a good two-weapon fighter's best defense is mobility. Whereas a sword-and-board fighter can be relatively static and block incoming attacks with the shield, the two-weapon guy has to move around alot to avoid getting gakked. Also, a two-weapon fighter can throw two blows simultaneously, which can be hard to defend against.

Anyway, thank ye Gods I don't run a simulationist game

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:49 pm

I would add in here that if the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties reduce to -4/-2.

If both weapons are light, the penalties are -3/-1. [Light weapons in my game typically don't do more than a d6 dmg. So if it is listed as d6+1 or as d8, or d10, it doesn't count as light. Thus, rapier and dagger would count).

Elsewise, you'll see far too many paired bastard swords, when you were hoping for rapier/dagger fighters.
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Nelzie · Post by **Nelzie** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:10 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
I would add in here that if the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties reduce to -4/-2.

If both weapons are light, the penalties are -3/-1. [Light weapons in my game typically don't do more than a d6 dmg. So if it is listed as d6+1 or as d8, or d10, it doesn't count as light. Thus, rapier and dagger would count).

Elsewise, you'll see far too many paired bastard swords, when you were hoping for rapier/dagger fighters.

YOINK!*

(*I just used my patent pending Spiderman Bio-Mechanical Web Shooting Goo Launchers to snag your idea and bring it to my campaign.)
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:13 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
I would add in here that if the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties reduce to -4/-2.

If both weapons are light, the penalties are -3/-1. [Light weapons in my game typically don't do more than a d6 dmg. So if it is listed as d6+1 or as d8, or d10, it doesn't count as light. Thus, rapier and dagger would count).

Elsewise, you'll see far too many paired bastard swords, when you were hoping for rapier/dagger fighters.

Hasn't come up in my campaign thus far but this seems good. The one thing I had been toying with was factoring EV of the weapons relative to a character's STR mod as a limitation. Not entirely sure how (yet) but something also relatively simple. Or maybe limiting primary hand to a weapon of EV 3 or less and offhand to an EV 2 or less.

Bottom line... simple is good!

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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:42 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
I would add in here that if the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties reduce to -4/-2.

If both weapons are light, the penalties are -3/-1.

I likey! Consider this house rule STOLEN!

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:03 pm

Necro'd

You know, -3/-6 on top of dex used as hit mod is pretty stiff. Esp for a brute fighter. That being said there is no weapon restrictions in the rule. It can be pretty powerful. A specialized fighter with a high dex holding 2 magical longswords could be pretty tuff! Or a paladin with Holy Avenger and sword of evil smiting, ouch!

I like the idea of scaling the negs posted above. It plays to the strength of the classes that might use the skill in a natural context (namely high dex rogues, etc).
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tex · Post by **tex** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:25 pm

serleran wrote:
Dexterity, magical adjustments, and any relevant special ability, such as weapon specialization, or a backstab, all apply to the use of "Florentine fighting." This means a high Dex thief that gets you from behind can kick your mule in no time. It also means a decent Dex fighter using small weapons as a specialty is rather naughty, especially as he starts getting additional attacks, easily off-setting the inherent penalty by pure BtH.

Strength is not a factor to hit in this case, but it is always a factor in damage delivered with melee weapons.

I have to side with Treebore on this one - I think Strength is almost always a factor with regard to the accuracy of melee weapons. Two reasons -- first of all, physical strength gives one more control over the weapon no matter how heavy or light it is, and it gives one more speed. Both of these are critical factors for determining how likely one is to score.

Like every other modern person I have little personal experience with actually killing someone with a sword or axe or dagger, but I've swing and thrust with all of these and this was my personal experience.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:41 pm

Heh - Strength is overall, raw, physical power -- here, try an experiment:

1) take a sledgehammer one-handed and hit something like a rock with it -- you probably won't do much damage to the rock

2) take the sledgehammer two-handed and hit the same rock -- you'll probably crack it or break it

Strength doesn't make you more accurate -- it lets you hurt things.

But, combat is not a reality simulator, and I am not saying it should be. So, if you really feel Strength should be used - go for it.

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:15 pm

I like the idea that Dex offsets the penalties, and that Str does not add a To-hit bonus when dual-wielding. Mainly for balance. Othewise, the ultimate warrior with high Str and high Dex, will always dual-wield (due to mechanics, yes, of course, some people role play, but we're talking mechanics in game).

The way it is suppose to work (no Str to hit bonus) I think works very well.

Now, the one that is missing, is the guy wielding just a single weapon in one hand... there is no reason to ever do so... So depending on how you view combat, you will have to start house ruling to make all fighting styles balance out. But the current rule is pretty balanced for dual-wielding as long as you keep the use of 2 huge weapons (2 bastard swords) as impossible. Once again, the rules are not detailed enough to enable some use of house rules if your players try to take advantage of BTB (by the book).
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:40 pm

I like the light weapon adjustment idea.

I think that the issue of strength is considering the power to blast through defenses, not necessarily control the strikes. Your sledgehammer example is pretty apt Serl, though I would think (using my brief experience with escrima as an example) that using lighter weapons would allow the strength to be applied. You start using larger weapons (again, some limited experience here) and your strength begins to be used for control of the weapon, not striking power...so I totally agree with losing the strength bonus with the larger weapons since it's being "used elsewhere".

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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:53 pm

It think this goes to show how armor really should work as both AC and Damage Reduction. This would fix the strength adding to damage issue. Light weapons and single handed weapons would be far less effective against full plate, compared to a very strong warrior with high strength and a two-handed sword.
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