reading a review of the new WotC Star Wars Saga Edition on slashdot. here's a paragraph that jumped right out at me
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...That attention to detail extends to the rules as well, which may be the most refined version of the d20 mechanic yet released in an official Wizards product. Gone are the cumbersome concepts of Armor Class, Defense, Vitality points, and Saving Throws used by other products. The game takes a simple approach: every Star Wars character is a hero. As such, it's possible for every character to take part in every scene, to one degree or another. Character Level, then, becomes the tie that binds every other mechanic. Almost every d20 roll you'll be making is modified by your character's level; neurotically min/maxing every aspect of your character is no longer a requirement....
Doesn't that sound strikingly like the Siege mechanic?
I know you can't protect rules, but wow!!!
ok, so if this is the path that 4th edition is going to take. C&C is in deep trouble - because there will be no way it can compete marketing wise with the WotC juggernaut
I know! TLG licensed its trademarked SIEGE Engine to Wizards! Boy, wouldn't that kick assabatuba... hehe. Seriously though, similarities are common in game design, but this is strikingly pleasing to me on a personal level.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Sure, it sounds a lot like Blue Rose's True 20 mechanic too. Which came out at about the same time C&C did.
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jman5000 wrote:
I know you can't protect rules, but wow!!!
ok, so if this is the path that 4th edition is going to take. C&C is in deep trouble - because there will be no way it can compete marketing wise with the WotC juggernaut
Cheers,
J
Hmm, interesting for sure. But rules lite a la C&C coming out from other companies, especially wotc might be a good thing for TLG. There might be more spill over (meaning more people willing to look a C&C once they see what wotc does) than is currently happening.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Sure... the mechanic is strikingly familiar which is why I'm interesting in at least leafing through the rule book when I get a chance. I did get a chance to look at an adventure done up for it though and it still looks a bit 'crunchy' for my tastes. Still has skills... FEATS... and various other scores... It would be hard to sway me from WEG's Star Wars. http://www.whatifgames.net/downloads/sws_mlg.pdf
If this is what 4th is going to look like, I'm sure WOTC (well Hasbro) will still be pushing its miniatures line to go along with it.
Moriarty the Red
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Yeah, I had a copy of Revised Core SW D20 and finally ditched it since I still have 2nd and 2nd ed revised of WEG Star Wars - I think it is probably still the best system for SW even 20 years later.
moriarty777 wrote:
If this is what 4th is going to look like, I'm sure WOTC (well Hasbro) will still be pushing its miniatures line to go along with it.
Moriarty the Red
Agreed. I'm sure 4th edition will have a much stronger focus on their D&D minis than most people realize.
moriarty777 wrote:
Sure... the mechanic is strikingly familiar which is why I'm interesting in at least leafing through the rule book when I get a chance. I did get a chance to look at an adventure done up for it though and it still looks a bit 'crunchy' for my tastes. Still has skills... FEATS... and various other scores... It would be hard to sway me from WEG's Star Wars. http://www.whatifgames.net/downloads/sws_mlg.pdf
If this is what 4th is going to look like, I'm sure WOTC (well Hasbro) will still be pushing its miniatures line to go along with it.
Moriarty the Red
They'd never be able to entice me away from WEG's d6 mechanic/system for Star Wars and other cinematic genre.
With a few tweaks, it's easy to update/modernize the whole Force skills/powers section of d6 Star Wars. (Which is also incredibly easy since everything is so modular and "same mechanic" with WEGd6...)
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Agreed. Miniatures appear to be such a money-maker for WotC, that I'm sure that 4e will be even more reliant upon them. And I don't know about
I'm still not sold on the new Star Wars edition being a rules-lite system. I think it'll still be more complex than it needs to be.
moriarty777 wrote:
If this is what 4th is going to look like, I'm sure WOTC (well Hasbro) will still be pushing its miniatures line to go along with it.
Was looking at the Trek-RPG.net forums a little while earlier - where many of the posters have managed to score a copy of this work - and the overall consensus is the Wizards has perhaps begun its long, slow and painful haul back to RPing sanity.
I have no intention of picking up this book - for the next while at least - but I think that the WotC boys have unquestionably cottoned to the SEIGE engine as the best way to lay the d20 demons to rest, at least as far as Star Wars is concerned. As Hairy Tarantula's (oldest gaming store in Toronto) owner was mentioning a couple weeks ago, the Saga edition is a beta-test for D&D 4.0 - not that they're planning on abandoning the 3.5 system, no - it's just that they're going to embrace an...alternative rules-lite mechanic that makes things a little more doable for those of us who don't have double-digit hours over the week toward putting a game together. If that 4.0 system happens to bear more than a few bastard-child resemblances to SEIGE...well, musta been a coinkeedink.
All best to Wizards on this - and yes, I probably will pick up the damned thing at some point - but Troll Lord still gets the two thumbs up. C&C forever.
Telhawk wrote:
All best to Wizards on this - and yes, I probably will pick up the damned thing at some point - but Troll Lord still gets the two thumbs up. C&C forever.
There is certainly nothing wrong with that... I may also end up picking up the core book sometime in the future *if* only to further tweak it and 'SIEGE' it down (er up?) even further. FEATs? .... we don't need no freakin' FEATs. Hell, it might be of some use to help me convert the old d6 material to the SIEGE mechanic...
M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
...and the fan boys are already claiming it is absolutely in no way similar even by a tiny bit. (Not only moving goal posts, but moving the whole entire football field to prove it.)
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Quote:
...and the fan boys are already claiming it is absolutely in no way similar even by a tiny bit. (Not only moving goal posts, but moving the whole entire football field to prove it.)
Watch the eyes...when they're shifting like pinballs on a fifty-thousand point run, you've got 'em dead to rights. Time to get the Kleig lights and a couple good Brixton boys with truncheons, I believe...
The new skill mechanics seem an interesting way to "sanitize" some d20 games out there. I am going to try the rules they explained in the previews with Conan d20 and Call of Cthulhu d20. Seems like an easy, SIEGE-like mechanic to replace the default skill systems.
I will not ever buy the book, I still love my 1st edition WEG Star Wars rpg.
Nelzie wrote:
...and the fan boys are already claiming it is absolutely in no way similar even by a tiny bit. (Not only moving goal posts, but moving the whole entire football field to prove it.)
Obviously these fan boys have never seen the C&C Phb, therefore they are entitled to such informed opinions
rabindranath72 wrote:
Obviously these fan boys have never seen the C&C Phb, therefore they are entitled to such informed opinions
I don't think it would matter, even if they did see it.
See, there's the total lack of skills in C&C that's why it's different... Even if it is functionally equivalent and the same basic setup of skilled/unskilled list of skills could EASILY be added to C&C and barely change the base functionality of the game.
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Ok, all this talk of the new starwars ripping off cnc made me order the game and this saturday it arrived.here is what it contains.
1. it has dumbed down the d20 skills. this is where it rips off cnc. a character picks its trained skills and makes a check. checks are done by d20+ 1/2 level+attribute mod and +5 if it is a trained skill. So all skills are available just a +5 mod if trained.
2. armor class is gone, instead, the base reflex save is used. The 3 d20 saves are derived by 10+level+atribute. However, the reflex save, since it is the new ac, is derived by using either level or armor bonus. So at low levels, armor is desired.
3. feats are still there, and if anything they have overcomplicated the sysem by using feats to implement the force. you pick a force trained feat and then pick 3+wis mod force talents. then as a jedi grows the also get force powers. thus, a jedi picks feats, talents, powers and skills, WAY TOO COMPLICATED.
4.multiple plugs for wotc minis. in the spaceship section they flat out say buy the starwars minis or use this system. the sysetm is basically giving spaceships character stats and follow normal combat.
Overall i would say its a good idea but still not as good as it shold be. star wars is such a cultural icon one would thing a decent rpg could do it right. And, if this is a preview of 4th edition dnd, the crusades are going to become very crowded.
I've also had a chance to get a more in depth look at the system and, although it is a step in the right direction, it is no more than a step! What I liked best about it was the reduced skill list which is, as you put it, dumbed down.
As for the rest of it... I have problems justifying a reason to pick it up. As I'm often dragged into the occasional D&D 3.x game, I might try and integrate the newer skill system to replace the existing d20 one.
However, why do that when I can continue playing C&C? I think I'll just wait till the trolls release their Sci-Fi SIEGE based game and play WEG's Star Wars in the meantime!
Moriarty the Red
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
I picked up SW Saga Edition and really like what I see. And this from a guy who just couldn't like the SW Revised Core Rulebook.
It's got a few things that I'm going to port over to C&C (This is C&C's greatest strength) but I'm gonna give it a go as written just to see how it is.
