Barbarian armor class:

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:54 pm

Should it go up by level?

As is, the barbarian's extremely limited choice in armor essentially requires him/her to utilize magic, to be 'on par' with other classes at higher levels.

Which seems a little unbarbarian to me:

"Your group faces 20 mighty northmen heroes, each undoubtably glimmering with magical shields, broaches and rings..."

How then, can we have a high level barbarian, with an armor class better than 16?

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:14 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
Should it go up by level?

Nah, he gains benefits and resistance to damage in other ways. That's what Primal Will (i think- get those names confused sometimes) is for.

The barbarian will get hit, but he's better able to take it than anyone. Extra big hit die, damage reduction. He takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.

-Fizz

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:27 pm

By RAW, Barbarian is basically a class that only NPCs have or people who want a "challenge" for roleplaying. Barbarians are supposed to get hit in combat-- that's why they have that minor damage reduction to help them take a few more [but DR 1 is kinda pointless against attacks doing 14 damage a piece when you are higher in level]

Their special abilities are luke warm compared to most other fighting classes, and they cost more xp to level than a fighter-- which is better than they are. Barbarian gets a +2 to dmg when raging a few times a day. Fighters get +2 to hit and damage with every attack all day long till the cows come home. And have an additional +1 to hit from their BtH. They can wear better armor too.

You don't choose barbarian if you want to be an ultimate killing machine with kewl powers or an unhittable AC. You are far better off being a ranger or fighter or paladin for that [Paladins have especially high ACs vs. evil creatures].

I use the barbarian class for NPC orcs who I want to have more HP than regular orcs. But they still get slaughtered by fighters and rangers (albeit they live an extra round sometimes thanks to the DR and the bigger HD).
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:22 pm

Don't worry Slimy, if Draupnir lives you'll see magic armor.

Plus in my game, usually by 10th level, you'll have the opportunity to have Dragon hide armor. Which is +4 before magic, and thats if it s avery young dragon.

There are other creatures with naturally tough hide that you can get better hide and leather armor made out of. Without magic.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:54 pm

That's like asking if the monk's AC needs improving more than it already does. The answer is: no. Besides, barbie can wear accessories, and marry Ken... what more does she need?

ChaosImp · Post by **ChaosImp** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:49 pm

I must be one of the few that like the barbarian class. I like the Primal Might ability; they can fight until -6 then don't die until they are at -18 (that is of course they have an 18 con. No fighter can top that. In regards to having a poor AC that's what having lots of HP are for, also they can wear plate armour they just loose their abilities.

IMP

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:01 pm

ChaosImp wrote:
also they can wear plate armour they just loose their abilities.

That's actually a good point: depending upon the circumstance, a barbarian can don heavier armor for 'the big battle', etc.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:02 pm

ChaosImp wrote:
I must be one of the few that like the barbarian class.

I find the barbarian class to be a staple of fantasy settings, and am surprised at its mediocre treatment by rpgs and players alike.

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:43 pm

Maybe it's karmic retribution for the overpowering back in Unearthed Arcana?

In my game, I beefed up the rage ability to provide a bonus to hit and to damage. But as a whole, the fighter still comes out ahead in combat, which is as it should be. But the barbarian does gain abilities outside of combat, unlike the fighter.

slimykuotoan wrote:
I find the barbarian class to be a staple of fantasy settings, and am surprised at its mediocre treatment by rpgs and players alike.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:56 pm

IMC, i convert the barbarian to the berserker class. He's not necessarily an outdoorsy nor uncivilised type.

-Fizz

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:02 pm

You could also have the primal rage increase "DR" by something like +1/ 6 levels. AC remains the same, but the ability to suck it up would be helped quite considerably.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:57 pm

serleran wrote:
You could also have the primal rage increase "DR" by something like +1/ 6 levels. AC remains the same, but the ability to suck it up would be helped quite considerably.

Still a pretty marginal difference though:

-2 damage per hit at 12th level...

Honestly, the barbarian get little armor, and possibly 2 more hit points than the fighter.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:56 pm

You apparently don't understand... that would be an additional +1 / 6 levels, so at level 12, I presume, it would be 3 off, per hit. Now, if a fighter gets hit twice for 9, that's 18 off HP, or the equivalent of 3 levels assuming no Con modifier. Now, if a barbie gets hit for the same 18, its not quite 2 HD equivalent. Serious advantage: barbarian... they will stay in the fight longer, due to not taking as much damage, when they actually take it, and can actually ignore some weapon attacks outright. Besides, its not as if they can't wear armor... they just are better without it, because they get to keep certain abilities. So, change it. Wow, thatr's a hard thing to do. State: a barbarian can wear any armor with an EV of less than 7 and retain all of their class abilities. Done.

This thinking that the barbarian is somehow royally berked because of their "armor allowed" stuff is ludicrous. Next do we see the "but my wizard needs to don plate mail too?" Go for it. Make the game yours. That's the point of "changes." Some may agree, others don't, but the best thing: it only matters to your game.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:00 pm

I like the idea of just beefing-up the rage ability. I would do it that way: +2 to att, dmg, DR and saving throws, then subsequent fatigue limited to 1d6x10 minutes. Otherwise, increasing in level adds additional uses per day (one more at 6th, then another at 12th, and finally one more at 18th). With such a houserule I guess the barbarian becomes an option on par with the other fighting classes.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:57 pm

I have a barbarian player in my campaign and so far I really don't feel the class is under-powered at all. Big ol' half orc wearing a chain shirt and swinging a great sword is good stuff.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:19 am

concobar wrote:
I have a barbarian player in my campaign and so far I really don't feel the class is under-powered at all. Big ol' half orc wearing a chain shirt and swinging a great sword is good stuff.

Ah, but if he were a fighter class, he could just "say" his character was a barbarian [class and character concept aren't the same thing] and get better bonuses to hit & damage all day long with his weapon specialization greatsword-- and if he wanted to, could put on some +1 Full Plate without missing out on anything.

The downside would be that he cannot fight to -8HP, but on the otherhand, he will get hit less often. The other downside would be that he gets 1 less hp per level than he would with d12HD [except at level 1 assuming the CK gives max HP at 1st level]

Choosing ranger might also work. Then, he'd get the wildernessy stuff, and do horrendous damage against most enemies the party encounters. He could even say, "Hobgoblins! I'm enraged at their presence and furiously attack for extra damage" if he wanted to emulate barbarian rage or something.

The point isn't that "you cannot be a successful character if you are a barbarian". You can. However, you could be more successful choosing another class-- one that gives more benefits and costs less xp to level.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:51 am

Quote:
However, you could be more successful choosing another class-- one that gives more benefits and costs less xp to level.

That is off base. Success, whatever the hell that means, is variable. It depends entirely on the game, the players, and how good you can roll your dice. What happens when your fighter never gets into combat? That was a very stupid choice on your part. You could have been "more successful" by picking a class that had more "social skills" like rogue or assassin.

What if the game occurs in a period where there are no formal structures and society is very primitive? Ie, there are no standing armies, hence no fighters at all? The world is basically occupied by hunter-gatherers (rangers and barbarians are pretty common.) Again, it would be a stupid choice to try and "succeed" as a fighter,or other class, though druid might be the best second bet.

The fact is simple: barbarian is an archetype that exists within the milieu TLG wanted for C&C. It fits its societal role, and its "game niche." By the rules, there is more to being a barbarian than being "primitive" or "being able to rage."

Hell, the simple concept that a barbarian gets Con as "free Prime" makes them very powerful. Con is, arguably, the best physical save to have, since it resists nearly every "instant death" effect not relying on "force of will" such as poison, massive damage, disease, death attacks, and the like. This means even demihumans make very good "cockroaches."

Add to this the highest HD type and the best per/level HP advancement, and one gets a character with more HP than anyone else, able to withstand more damage (obviously), but also due to reducing damage, and being able to fight longer (going to negatives is very powerful, as it effectively adds those HP as a bonus to the total.)

So, they get hit slightly more often? Not a whole lot more often. Magical varieties of the very heavy armors (how many Polish Hussar +5 do you think there are in the world?) aren't common (if you're making such things normal, then you're obviously favoring the fighter class, but that has nothing to do with the barbarian being weak... its the circumstance of your particualr campaign.) Something liek chainmail, or scale, or the "medium" armors are much more common, and guess what? Both the barbarian and fighter can wear them... Also, the discrepancy in where the barbarian's AC allowed tops off and the best AC allowed by fighter's armor is not very high. What is it, +3, +4? Practically meaningless at the high levels, and if your fighters are wearing this stuff at low levels... well, again, its got nothing to do with the barbarian's AC but your obvious preference for the heavy-duty tin can man. So, this means the DR ability, while seemingly "weak" at high levels is actually god-awful gross since the fighter and barbarian are going to be hit about the same number of times, and it comes down to who can take more such hits -- and that answer is nearly always barbarian.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:02 am

I guess when all is said and done, the moral of the story is that -as is- the barbarian is a fairly worthless class, and thus eventually needs to be redone in the PHB.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:08 am

Umm, no. By that treatment all the classes are worthless. If you do not like the barbarian, remove it, or modify it. I did. I have no need for it in my games, since there are no cultures that exist that would qualify as such. However, simply because you do not like the treatment does not mean it is "universally worthless." Quite the opposite, actually, given the "in-game play testimonials" from others.

Most of these "its worthless" arguments come from preference, rather than actual flaws. That is the real problem.... not the design of the class. Especially true if one uses the assumed rule, as I've stated many times before, that AC caps at 30. So, who cares if the fighter can gets there easier (well, not really... still requires magical heavy gear)? It still caps.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:49 am

I don't know Slimy, I think if Draupnir were a fighter, with fighter HP's, he would have died in that pit.

As for the thing as a class, I had been thinking of having its raging ability a little tougher and maybe improving its DR ability. Other than that it is one tough class.

I agree it belongs in the game as a class, "barbarian" is too much of an iconic kind of stereotype. One that is not a ranger, or a fighter. Conan and Slaine are my quintessential icons of what it is to be a Barbarian.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:09 pm

With regard to Draupnir, I really do think he can stand with the other characters, but that's because were using Ghul's version...

As is, in the PHB, I can't imagine anyone spending that much experience for an extra +2 to damage and will saves a few times, and huge armor restrictions.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:39 pm

Quote:
That is off base. Success, whatever the hell that means, is variable. It depends entirely on the game, the players, and how good you can roll your dice. What happens when your fighter never gets into combat? That was a very stupid choice on your part.

Then I'd quit the campaign, as the GM for some reason thinks we're playing vampire: the emo-ing and not Castles & Crusades. If there are no combat encounters I'd ask the GM if there were going to be any, how frequently we could expect to fight, etc. If he doesn't answer, or says "there is planned to be 1 fight every 5 sessions" or something like that, I'd simply say "oh, this isn't what I was hoping to play. Sorry." and I'd quit wasting my time with that lame game.

Quote:
What if the game occurs in a period where there are no formal structures and society is very primitive? Ie, there are no standing armies, hence no fighters at all? The world is basically occupied by hunter-gatherers (rangers and barbarians are pretty common.) Again, it would be a stupid choice to try and "succeed" as a fighter,or other class, though druid might be the best second bet.

If the GM did not BAN the fighter class, there's no reason not to take it. One could argue that Comanche Dog Soldiers were fighters [though ranger might make more sense if their enemy was allowed to be human instead of humanoids & giants] Fighter makes plenty of sense also if you plan on being some super skilled archer-- one which could have a second arrow fly before the first hit the ground, as some Native American archers were said to be capable of. So if you made a fighter with weapon specialization bow, it'd make sense I'd say.

Quote:
The fact is simple: barbarian is an archetype that exists within the milieu TLG wanted for C&C. It fits its societal role, and its "game niche." By the rules, there is more to being a barbarian than being "primitive" or "being able to rage."

Would the niche not been filled if the character class were built more effectively? It is not in my imagination that barbarian is a relatively weaker class-- lots of people have made this complaint. In general, if 1 or 2 people complain about something-- it is likely they have a problem. If 10 or 20 people start complaining, it is likely that there actually is a problem. Plenty of people have addressed this problem by making/using the "alternate" barbarian class like berserker that somebody made and put on their website. I myself simply make it available, try to talk up its good points, and have yet to see a player choose to play one.

Quote:
Hell, the simple concept that a barbarian gets Con as "free Prime" makes them very powerful. Con is, arguably, the best physical save to have, since it resists nearly every "instant death" effect not relying on "force of will" such as poison, massive damage, disease, death attacks, and the like. This means even demihumans make very good "cockroaches."

Add to this the highest HD type and the best per/level HP advancement, and one gets a character with more HP than anyone else, able to withstand more damage (obviously), but also due to reducing damage, and being able to fight longer (going to negatives is very powerful, as it effectively adds those HP as a bonus to the total.)

I'll be sure to remember this when I chose to play a monk over barbarian.

Quote:
So, they get hit slightly more often? Not a whole lot more often. Magical varieties of the very heavy armors (how many Polish Hussar +5 do you think there are in the world?) favoring the fighter class, but that has nothing to do with the barbarian being weak...

Perhaps, but +1 Polish Hussar armor would exist. The barbarian would be limited to +1 Hide or Chain shirt by comparison. He could use a shield, but then would miss out on haveing a big 2H weapon...

Quote:
So, this means the DR ability, while seemingly "weak" at high levels is actually god-awful gross since the fighter and barbarian are going to be hit about the same number of times, and it comes down to who can take more such hits -- and that answer is nearly always barbarian.

Okay, I give you that. Barbs have about 1hp per level more than a fighter [possibly 2 more at 1st level if GM gives full HD at level 1] and DR 1 and can fight to -6 hp. So a 10th level fighter and his twin brother the barbarian each have ave. hp per level. Fighter uses sword & board, barbarian uses 2H axe. Each has +1 equipment. They both have 12 in all stats for some reason.

Fighter has 55 HP, AC 21, 2 attacks per round for 1d8+3 [ave 7] with +13 to hit [possible ave. 14 dmg per round]

Barbarian has 66 HP, AC 15, 1 attack per round for 1d12+1 [ave. 7] (1d12+3 w/ fury [ave 9]) with +10 to hit. DR 1 and can fight to -6.

If they are fighting a creature with 10HD [50 hp], AC 18, 2 attacks per round that do 3d6+1 dmg per hit [ave 12 dmg] here's how it breaks down.

Round 1: Creature attacks each of them for 11 dmg. With +10 to hit, his chance of hitting fighter is 50% [ave dmg of 6 per round] and against barbarian it is 75% [ave dmg of 8 per round]. Barbarian is down to 59hp, fighter down to 49. Fighter attacks with +13 to hit giving him a 75% chance of hitting AC 18, doing an average of 5 dmg per attack [10 dmg per round] knocking the creature down to 40 hp. Barbarian attacks, going into a fury, getting +10 to hit, a 60% chance of hitting. Ave dmg per round is 6, knocking the monster down to 34 hp.

Round 2: Creature attacks again, Fighter down to 43 hp, Barbarian down to 52. Fighter knocks creature down to 24hp, barbarian shaves him down to 18.

Round 3 Fighter knocked down to 37hp, barbarian down to 45. Creature knocked down to 2hp.

Round 4, Fighter down to 31hp, barbarian down to 38, creature is finished off.

So by the stats, the Fighter did a lot more dmg, but the barbarian could take more damage [and did take more per round on average].

So I guess barbarian at higher levels is a decent class-- though I'd still prefer a fighter. The creature being taken down quickly also contributed to their survival. I guess each class has a roll to fill. I just never though of the barbarian's roll as being defensive. [/quote]
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:07 pm

In that example both classes were hit the same number of times...

In reality, the barbarian would be dead after that encounter, because the monster only needs a 5 or higher on a d20to him him/her, while it needs a roll of 11 or higher for the fighter.

Averaging damage based upon AC doesn't work out.

On average, it's another 2 hits for Mr. barbarian in a short combat, an extra 8 or so in extended combat.

Dead barbarian.

ChaosImp · Post by **ChaosImp** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:09 pm

Well I for one am going to leave the Barbarian as is, we have had a Barb in the party for around a year now and there's been no complaints from the player regarding "power" or trying to calculate the " + " or "-" between fighter and barbarians. The most important thing is to have fun with the character you have. I could play a 0 Level poo farmer and still enjoy role-playing him (okay so he wouldnt live long). The point is don't worry about power or abilities just enjoy the game.

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:44 pm

ChaosImp wrote:
Well I for one am going to leave the Barbarian as is, we have had a Barb in the party for around a year now and there's been no complaints from the player regarding "power" or trying to calculate the " + " or "-" between fighter and barbarians. The most important thing is to have fun with the character you have. I could play a 0 Level poo farmer and still enjoy role-playing him (okay so he wouldnt live long). The point is don't worry about power or abilities just enjoy the game.

well said ChaosImp. Seems like some of the posters in this thread are more interested in roll playing than they are in role playing. All the number crunching and what not seems more the domain of a wargame than a fantasy rpg.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:55 pm

concobar wrote:
Seems like some of the posters in this thread are more interested in roll playing than they are in role playing. All the number crunching and what not seems more the domain of a wargame than a fantasy rpg.

K...roll for initiative conobar...

I have a plus 5 modified by my feat, giving me a minus to...

Seriously though, it's just that one class that really bugs me; even if it had a few abilities like tracking, etc. it would help.

Right now it's just an armorless guy who gets mad every so often.

Malperion · Post by **Malperion** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:45 am

My group has made some minor tweak to just about every character class. For the Barbarian we just reduced the cool-down penalty for the rage and that's about it.

I run the barbie in our group, and despite the number crunching shown in this thread, I've just focused on the image and mojo of the character and have had a blast! I made my dude based on the Frazetta character shown on the cover of the Wilderlands of High Fantasy game box, so that means I use a flail, a big shield and no armor! I have a crapload of hp...lose alot of them most adventures...but play it to the snarling, savage hilt so my GM gives me intimidation bonuses. I usually run into melees like a screaming mess, throwing off the enemy to allow the aristocratic elf fighter to cooly skewer the bewildered opposition. Made it to level 5 using that tactic among others.

Part of moving my group to C&C was to focus away from the numbers game and back onto story, fast action and creativity.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:56 am

I see the "problem." Its the elusive hunt for the "perfect balance" in C&C, which is a joke, honestly. When you realize the classes weren't designed with the others in mind (as in, what they got, specifically; only in how the abilities compared XP- wise matter) and then ponder the fact that each class is simply a representation of a particular archetype for a standard fantasy milieu, you'll see why the classes are as they are, flawed and all. If, however, you want the "ultimate class" I suggest you try the cleric. They get everything. Perfect streamline Primes for abilities, fast advancement, spells (including healing), awesome armor choices, decent BtH, good weapons (some do multiple dice of damage) and a pretty good HD type. Couple that with the fact that at a certain level they can make their own magic items, bring the dead back to life, and can mimic any other class in terms of abilities via their spells.... there is nothing more "perfect."

Malperion · Post by **Malperion** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:07 am

But then he would be a cleric and not my butt-whooping barbarian that scatters his foeman before him and hears the lamentation of their women.

Barbarian is the role. I play the role. The rules help the role as I see it (lots of H.P., gets pissed, still standing when he should be falling). The other players see me in action and say, "Yep that's our batshit barbarian in action"! The image fits almost RAW (minor tweak to cool-down penalty).

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:09 am

Malperion wrote:
my butt-whooping barbarian that scatters his foeman before him and hears the lamentation of their women.

Here here by Crom!

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