To convert or not to convert

[Zulgyan]

Ok... here is the situation.

I wanted to give 3rd Edition it's last run by DMing "Lost City of Barakus". The campaign is turning out great but me and my players are each session more and more tired and unsatisffied with the 3rd Edition rules.

We got an almost all 3rd level D&D 3.5 party by now. And we are thinking about converting the whole campaign. Characters, items found, and the rest of the module.

Do you recommend me to finally change to C&C? If so, what would be your advice?

I won't abandon the campaign and start a new one, so that is not the kind of advice I'm needing.

Thanks a lot in advance,

Z.

[Rigon]

Convert that puppy! Why waste time with a system that is unsatisfying to you and your players. I'd convert it to whatever system you intend to use (ie. C&C) without further delay.

R-
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[SavageRobby]

I'm an unabashed 3x convert. I played it for a few years, never found my grove with it, and moved on to Savage Worlds and now C&C. So, I'd say go for it - give it a shot and convert it.

Of course, you're on a C&C forum, so I suspect you're going to get mostly the same advice here.

[moriarty777]

I'd convert it as well... take a session off to the the character conversions. That would be the part which deserves the most attention. As for the adventure itself, that should be fairly easy to convert and a lot of the stuff you can do on the fly... With a bit of encounter conversion prep work before hand, it will look seamless to the players. Plus... with it being a low level campaign, that just makes it a heck of a lot easier to convert on the whole.

No prestige class nonsense to worry about for example...

Good luck!

Moriarty the Red
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[slimykuotoan]

What are the current character classes?

[Zulgyan]

Elven Cleric lvl 2 (400 xp to lvl 3) - no real problem.

Dwarf Cleric 3rd lvl - no real problem

Gnome Ilussionist 3rd lvl - will have to change many spells, but no real problem.

Spiked Chain Fighter 2 lvl (200 xp to lvl 3) - will have to change tactics.

Rogue/Ranger lvl 1/1 - this one is the most dificult to convert.

Another problem is that in C&C all progression are diferent and XP works totally different. It will be hard to get a fair transition. How would you handle it? I told my player's to be ready to accept my desicion since it will be hard to get it fair.

[moriarty777]

Zulgyan wrote:
Elven Cleric lvl 2 (400 xp to lvl 3) - no real problem.

Dwarf Cleric 3rd lvl - no real problem

Gnome Ilussionist 3rd lvl - will have to change many spells, but no real problem.

Spiked Chain Fighter 2 lvl (200 xp to lvl 3) - will have to change tactics.

Rogue/Ranger lvl 1/1 - this one is the most dificult to convert.

Another problem is that in C&C all progression are diferent and XP works totally different. It will be hard to get a fair transition. How would you handle it? I told my player's to be ready to accept my desicion since it will be hard to get it fair.

Well, what I would do is probably give them all 4001 xp ... This will put the Fighter at level 3 (exactly) but other character (like the clerics) won't have transitioned yet to level 3. I chose the Fighter's EPP because it feels 'middle of the road' when you look at the various progression of other character classes.

As for the Rogue/Ranger... there are many multiclassing variants so I would just go with one of those. If you follow the link in my signature, I've got a multiclassing variant which works well enough in my opinion. There is also the Class Options & Skills free PDF on the TLG site in the downloads section...

Moriarty the Red
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[serleran]

At such low levels, just change them directly over. The chain fighter becomes a regular fighter, with WS in chains (use the same damage, but remove criticals), and use the CZ:Y rules for the multiclass. I don't see the concern. Now, if you were converting 12th or more PCs....

[Zulgyan]

moriarty777 wrote:
Well, what I would do is probably give them all 4001 xp ... This will put the Fighter at level 3 (exactly) but other character (like the clerics) won't have transitioned yet to level 3. I chose the Fighter's EPP because it feels 'middle of the road' when you look at the various progression of other character classes.

As for the Rogue/Ranger... there are many multiclassing variants so I would just go with one of those. If you follow the link in my signature, I've got a multiclassing variant which works well enough in my opinion. There is also the Class Options & Skills free PDF on the TLG site in the downloads section...

Moriarty the Red

The problem is I they got diferent amounts of XP each right now, because of deaths, session unattendance, etc.

What would be your suggestion?

[SavageRobby]

Start by converting their current XP figures over directly, and see where that puts each one.

[Zulgyan]

Good idea.

Then maybe add an equal amount of XP to everyone to have them reach there actual level.

Another question for more expierenced C&C gamers.

How slow/fast is advancement in C&C compared to D&D 3.5 but at 50% XP awards?

[serleran]

Advancement in C&C is about 1/100th that of D&D, even with 50% reduction to d20 XP. In D&D every 13.3 encounters is engineered to level up a party, so doubling that puts it at 26.6. In C&C, it'll likely take 300, or more. Of course, that assumes Xp from fights only. If you give Xp for treasure, the number of encounters needed might drop by half. So, its more like 26.6 encounters : 150, or roughly 5 times as slow as 50% d20 XP awarded. C&C is designed for long-term investment in your character... not "let's play a new superpower PC every third session!"

[Dagger]

As for the XP question... I give out XP for monsters defeated as well as treasure, but I give a lot more awards for role-playing than I did with d20. I'm relatively sure it's because the guys actually role-play more now rather than digging through rule books. I also tend to give 50 xp per hour (real life hour) as a general award for good play. They definitely can tell the difference in their rewards when they don't play their characters well.

[Treebore]

Zulgyan wrote:
Good idea.

Then maybe add an equal amount of XP to everyone to have them reach there actual level.

Another question for more expierenced C&C gamers.

How slow/fast is advancement in C&C compared to D&D 3.5 but at 50% XP awards?

I wouldn't use the 50% xp reduction suggested for 3E play. They can level kind of fast, in C&C, to 4th level if treasure xp's are awarded, and the treasure is high value. After 4th level the speed slows down more and more to where at 8th and 9th level it can seem like it is crawling.

I would also look at where straight XP conversion puts them in C&C terms, then adjust them from there.

As for conversion of LCoB, its been awhile since I've looked at teh monster lists, but I believe most of them are in the M&T.

NPC's are easy to convert once you become familiar with the C&C equipment lists, and know how to convert the AC. To hit and saves equal the level/HD. Then you have to decide primes. Fighter types just default to Physical, spellcaster types default to mental. Then on key NPC's select it however you see fit.
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[Zulgyan]

serleran wrote:
Advancement in C&C is about 1/100th that of D&D, even with 50% reduction to d20 XP. In D&D every 13.3 encounters is engineered to level up a party, so doubling that puts it at 26.6. In C&C, it'll likely take 300, or more. Of course, that assumes Xp from fights only. If you give Xp for treasure, the number of encounters needed might drop by half. So, its more like 26.6 encounters : 150, or roughly 5 times as slow as 50% d20 XP awarded. C&C is designed for long-term investment in your character... not "let's play a new superpower PC every third session!"

Yeah, one of my reasons for letting D&D 3.5 go away.

Now, this means that I'll have tu stuff LCoB with much more adventure to make players high level enought to take later challanges.

[gideon_thorne]

Zulgyan wrote:
Rogue/Ranger lvl 1/1 - this one is the most dificult to convert.

Um..why?

Ya just make a first level Ranger/Thief with the same hit points and stats.

Whats so hard? ^_^
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[Zulgyan]

Being a C&C newbie

[AGNKim]

Zulgyan wrote:

Spiked Chain Fighter 2 lvl (200 xp to lvl 3) - will have to change tactics.
Rogue/Ranger lvl 1/1 - this one is the most dificult to convert.

Oh, 3.5... you so crazy.

[Zulgyan]

oh yeah

[BASH MAN]

Zulgyan wrote:
Elven Cleric lvl 2 (400 xp to lvl 3) - no real problem.

Dwarf Cleric 3rd lvl - no real problem

Gnome Ilussionist 3rd lvl - will have to change many spells, but no real problem.

Spiked Chain Fighter 2 lvl (200 xp to lvl 3) - will have to change tactics.

Rogue/Ranger lvl 1/1 - this one is the most dificult to convert.

Another problem is that in C&C all progression are diferent and XP works totally different. It will be hard to get a fair transition. How would you handle it? I told my player's to be ready to accept my desicion since it will be hard to get it fair.

Fair XP transition is simple. Take whatever level you want the party to be at on average. Look up the Fighter XP table-- fighter is the best "average" xp table to use, as there are several classes with lower xp requirements and several with higher. When I want to make a game where players begin at levels higher than first, I usually have all PCs start with a bit more than minimum xp for that level of fighter.

So for a 3rd level campaign, I'd let everyone begin with 6,000 xo. This will have the fighter begining at 3rd level, same with the clerics, and the illusionist. The Rogue/Ranger can be handled in 2 ways.

In one way, you keep track of xp for the 2 classes separately, and he gets half xp for each. He would end up with levels 3/2 in his classes, having 3,000 in each. I HIGHLY recommend you DON"T do hit points the way the multi classing rules suggest, or else your rogue/ranger will begin with 5 Hit Dice when everyone else gets 3. Instead, use the old half hit points per level in each class system that AD&D did.

OR-- the method I prefer-- is instead of keeping track of xp from two classes, simply combine the xp tables together-- thus forcing him to gain levels in both classes simultaneously. Instead of having to keep half hit hit points per die (rounding up and down at alternate levels, etc), just average the hit dice. A Rogue/Ranger should have d8 HD (d10+d6= 16/2= d8).

Multiclassing rules apply as follows: gain the class abilities of both classes, the weapons allowed by the better of the two, bonus to hit that is better of the two, and the armor allowed of the worse of the two.

Rogue/Ranger XP Table

Lv 2---3,500--2d8HD

Lv 3---7,000--3d8HD

Lv 4---15,000-4d8HD

Lv 5---30,000-5d8HD

Lv 6---64,000-6d8HD

Lv 7---123,000-7d8HD

In a campaign with 6,000 xp to start, your ranger would be a Lv 2 Ranger/Rogue with 2d8HD, able to use any weapon, but limited to lighter armors (no more than +3 AC). His BtH from class is +1. As for primes, he has to have STR and DEX if you follow the rules as written, although, if you want him to be more effective in the use of his ranger abilities, I suggest changing the ranger's class prime to Wisdom.
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[madirishman]

What I'd do with XP is simply give them the same C&C levels they had in D&D 3.5, plus whatever amount of XP corresponds to the proportion of the forthcoming level they had advanced.

So just do some division, and if a character's 25% of the way to level 4 in terms of D&D experience, make him level 3 in C&C and give him 25% of the XP needed for level 4 on the C&C chart.

YMMV.

P

[old school gamer]

My advice? Run a one-shot, give the players a taste of the game that doesn't risk anything. When they realize that they really like the game and are having more fun with it, then convert over.