Which are the multi-classing rules you find best?

Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:21 pm

There are lots of multi-class rules for C&C.

I want to know wich do you people fin best and recommend. And maybe add a "Why?" answer if you are in the mood to do it.

Thanks beforehand

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:25 pm

I like creating my own classes with their own XP charts because it lets the player get exactly what they want, and allows me to restrict them how I want without resorting to "but but" arguments. So, I use my deconstruction system over anything else.

Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:47 pm

Oh, but as you said, your are not going or can not share it, don't you? If you would, that would be great.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:58 pm

No, I will not share it, for legal reasons.

Anyway, aside from that, I don't mind Jackal's system which appeared in Crusader #4, I believe. Also, sieg's "multiclasses as classes" idea is in the same issue, and its not too bad (reminded me of something I'd done before called "melded classes," which I think is the same term he used, too.) The CZ:Y system is good (its basically just AD&D style) but the errata makes it a mind-bender so I'd just use the AD&D way. What it boils down to is a matter of taste since they all get to the same thing.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:11 pm

I do it the old D&D way, plus I limit it to only Dual classing.

They use the best HD, the worst AC, the best weapons selection, and only one class counts for saves. The class with the relevant class ability use used for checks.

Plus they must have the relevant stat for both classes as Prime.

Why? It worked to my satisfaction the 15 years I DMed 1E and 2E, so I figured I would be happy with it now. I have been.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:06 am

Gygax's skills & options all the way...

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:31 am

I use a version based off of the 2e rules. They work out just fine.

R-
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:10 am

Hmm, it's getting harder to have a favorite way to use these rules, after that Crusader magazine issue (5?). I like them, but not any one version, so I would probably have to review/combine/adjust all of them and set them as house rules. So many great ideas presented, but generally, I'll be looking for the simplest!
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Tank · Post by **Tank** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:55 pm

I also use Gygax's rules. They are the most familiar to me. Although if a player wanted something else, I wouldn't object.

SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:35 pm

I use a variant of EGG's rules, with a few addition bits thrown in/changed. Basically:
MULTI-CLASSING

Some very rare individuals (PCs and the occasional NPC) are able to multi-class, that is, operate and advance in two different classes simultaneously. Characters may only choose to be multi-classed during character creation, and they must provide a very good background for their class choices.
CHOOSING THE CLASSES

1. Any class can combine with any other class, barring alignment restrictions and as long as the selected classes are not of the same prime attribute (i.e. wizard/illusionist, fighter/ranger, etc. are prohibited).

2. Up to two classes may be chosen.

3. The classes chosen must correspond to a prime attribute.

4. The Hit Dice for each class are rolled together and then averaged, rounding up fractions of .5 or more, dropping any below that.

5. The following classes require too much dedication and focus, and may never be multi-classed: Monk, Knight and Paladin.
ADVANCING LEVELS

1. All experience points are divided equally amongst the classes chosen for the character. For example, if a fighter/thief were to receive 250 experience points, 125 is applied to the fighter class and 125 to the thief class. All fractions are dropped.

2. A character progresses in one class as soon as he or she acquires enough experience points to do so. For example, if a cleric/wizard has 2,252 experience points in both the wizard and cleric class (they must always be equal), that character advances to 2nd level cleric while remaining a 1st level wizard.

3. When advancing a level, use the Hit Die type for the class one advanced in to determine the number of hit points gained. The sum is then divided by the number of character classes.

Using the cleric/wizard above, the player rolls a d8 for hit points and then divides the result by two, rounding up any fraction of .5 or greater and dropping any fractions less. When the character acquires 2,602 experience points in each class, a d4 is rolled and similarly divided. If a level is lost (drained, etc.), half of the average of one HD is lost in the process.

Once a class achieves 11th level, hit point accumulation is equal to standard class advancement, also divided in half. For example, an 10th/8th thief/fighter advances a level in thief and thus gains +1 hit points (as opposed to +2).

4. The total character level of a multi-class character equals the level of the highest class plus half the levels of the remaining classes. So a 4th/4th level thief/fighter is a 6th level character for purposes of saving throws.
RESTRICTIONS

1. Multi-classed characters use the best to hit bonus of their classes.

2. Multi-classed characters use the least restrictive weapons list for their classes.

3. Multi-classed characters use the most restrictive armor list of their classes.

4. Multi-classed characters can not combine abilities. For example, a fighters extra attack indicates that the character can make an extra normal attack -- not that he or she can use that extra attack to deflect missiles as a monk, make a back attack as a thief, or inspire as a knight.

5. Multi-classed characters use the best class for starting gold.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:50 pm

I do it just like it was in the Crusader issue. Works just fine, easy, a bit slow, but compltely workable.

....................................................Omote

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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:39 am

slimykuotoan wrote:
Gygax's skills & options all the way...

So multiclassed characters get double hit dice? [until 10HD, at which point the gain those xp per levels from both classes, also effectively giving double hit points].

That system is good, but the hit dice mechanics need changed, unless you want to punish people for not multiclassing. As written, a Fighter/Wizard with a 13 Constitution score with 20,000 xp would have 7HD+7 (4d10+3d4+7) for an average of 37 HP. A Fighter with 20,000 xp would have 5d10+5, for an average of 33 HP. Having wizard levels makes you tougher than a straight up fighter? Also, in that example, the fighter/wizard only needs another 400xp to gain another d4+1 HP

The downside is once you reach 10HD, you stop gaining HD and just gain HP/level from the classes. So the fighter/wizard would have 5d10+5d4+ 4/level +1/level.

Assuming a Level 15/Fighter/15 Wizard, we have 5d10+5d4+40 (fighter) +10 (wizard) +30 (for con). An average of 111 HP.

His friend with the same xp would be a level 16 fighter with 10d10+24(levels after 10)+16 (con)= an average of 94 HP.

If you look at the numbers and say "that can't be right" look again. As written, the multiclassing rules clearly give this big discrepency in hit points, including the COn bonus being applied to levels from both classes.
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:24 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
Assuming a Level 15/Fighter/15 Wizard, we have 5d10+5d4+40 (fighter) +10 (wizard) +30 (for con). An average of 111 HP.

His friend with the same xp would be a level 16 fighter with 10d10+24(levels after 10)+16 (con)= an average of 94 HP.

The 15 Fighter/15 Wizard would have 3500002 in xp. I think you should also half everything after the HD (+20 for fighter, +5 for wizard, +15 for con). So you are going to have 5d10+5d4+20+5+15 for an average of 70 HP.

His friend with the same xp would be around 22nd level. His HP would be 10d10+40+22 for an average of 112 HP.

Clearly the straight fighter has the advantage in HPs.

R-
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:55 pm

My system of "melded classes" was inspired by Basic/Expert D&D's race/classes (only not the races). I had originally done them up for AD&D several years ago (check dragonsfoot's _Footprints_ E-zine issues 2 or 3) but when I was picked for the C&C playtests I'd suggested using it as the "de facto" MC system. TLG decided to avoid listing one at all to allow maximum CK latitude and I think it was a wise idea.

So, I ended up putting them in my column in Crusader to give people another option!

...'Natch I think my system works great...but I'm biased.
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Dangersaurus · Post by **Dangersaurus** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:42 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
So multiclassed characters get double hit dice? [until 10HD, at which point the gain those xp per levels from both classes, also effectively giving double hit points].

That system is good, but the hit dice mechanics need changed, unless you want to punish people for not multiclassing. As written, a Fighter/Wizard with a 13 Constitution score with 20,000 xp would have 7HD+7 (4d10+3d4+7) for an average of 37 HP. A Fighter with 20,000 xp would have 5d10+5, for an average of 33 HP. Having wizard levels makes you tougher than a straight up fighter? Also, in that example, the fighter/wizard only needs another 400xp to gain another d4+1 HP

Hit points gained are divided by the number of classes. This would give your example F4/M-U3 (4d10 + 3d4)/2 + 7 hit points, or 19 hit points on average.

Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:13 pm

serleran wrote:
No, I will not share it, for legal reasons.

Anyway, aside from that, I don't mind Jackal's system which appeared in Crusader #4, I believe. Also, sieg's "multiclasses as classes" idea is in the same issue, and its not too bad (reminded me of something I'd done before called "melded classes," which I think is the same term he used, too.) The CZ:Y system is good (its basically just AD&D style) but the errata makes it a mind-bender so I'd just use the AD&D way. What it boils down to is a matter of taste since they all get to the same thing.

This is no longer the case, my friend, as the document has been repaired (it may have been while you were offline for a few weeks or so).
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/downlo ... skills.pdf

Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:17 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
So multiclassed characters get double hit dice? [until 10HD, at which point the gain those xp per levels from both classes, also effectively giving double hit points].

That system is good, but the hit dice mechanics need changed,

If you look at the numbers and say "that can't be right" look again. As written, the multiclassing rules clearly give this big discrepency in hit points, including the COn bonus being applied to levels from both classes.

Bash, these rules which you find faulty have indeed been repaired:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/downlo ... skills.pdf

--Jeff T.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:56 am

Dangersaurus wrote:
Hit points gained are divided by the number of classes. This would give your example F4/M-U3 (4d10 + 3d4)/2 + 7 hit points, or 19 hit points on average.

That's what I assumed it would say, and that is the reasonable thing, but when I sit here and read it, it does not say you divide the HPs up-- you just get the full ammount from both classes. Perhaps this is a typo? That'd make things a lot better IMO.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:47 pm

Multiclass rules that don't nerf the traditional Elf F/MU by forcing him or her to go around completely unarmoured are what I'm after.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:13 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Multiclass rules that don't nerf the traditional Elf F/MU by forcing him or her to go around completely unarmoured are what I'm after.

I added a racial feature to elves that allow them to cast arcane spells while wearing elven chain mail. You could go with something like that.

R-
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:05 pm

sieg wrote:
My system of "melded classes" was inspired by Basic/Expert D&D's race/classes (only not the races). I had originally done them up for AD&D several years ago (check dragonsfoot's _Footprints_ E-zine issues 2 or 3) but when I was picked for the C&C playtests I'd suggested using it as the "de facto" MC system. TLG decided to avoid listing one at all to allow maximum CK latitude and I think it was a wise idea.

So, I ended up putting them in my column in Crusader to give people another option!

...'Natch I think my system works great...but I'm biased.

Siegs system gets my vote,I tweaked the classes a bit, but his melded classes form a strong base.
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Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:04 am

Where is Siegs system found?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:14 am

Zulgyan wrote:
Where is Siegs system found?

Its been published in the last couple or so of Crusader magazines. ^_^
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SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:07 pm

The more I think about the combined-XP multi-class idea (ala race as a class), the more I like it. For the most part, not much would change, but levels would always be consistent, and HD would be easier to deal with (choose a class to take the hit die from, and always use that).

I'm going to have to write that up as an alternate and look at it side by side. Very cool.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:56 pm

If I can ever hear back from c&cplayer.net I'll put it up as a pdf for general access. Uness someone else wants to host it?
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:01 pm

Zulgyan wrote:
Where is Siegs system found?

I've just been reviewing them. Excellent read - issues #4 and #5 of the Crusader!
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:37 am

sieg wrote:
If I can ever hear back from c&cplayer.net I'll put it up as a pdf for general access. Uness someone else wants to host it?

Hey Sieg... feel free to send a copy my way; I'd be glad to host it.

You can send it to arcana777 at gmail.com

Thanks!

Moriarty the Red
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jeff · Post by **jeff** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:07 pm

I also prefer Sieg's system. So much in fact, I created my own melded classes: the Warden and the Spellsinger! I just had one question about the Templar (F/C/W) and the Scoundrel (F/R/W). Under typical races it lists Elves and Half Elves, but each gives 3 primes. But demihumans only get 2 primes. WTF?

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:28 pm

Re: Templar and Scoundrel... The answer you seek is either:

1. Templars and Scoundrels, while accessible to Elves & Half-Elves, require them to take one of those areas as a "sub Prime". That is, in at least one of the functions they'll have the class benefits but not the Prime for the class attribute.

....or....

2. Elves and Half-Elves cannot become these Melded Classes; Steve and Davis just stuck those in to make me look stupid because I won't return the zip disks they accidentally sent me full of Oriental porn.

...or....

3. When I converted them from AD&D to C&C, that bit skipped past me and its only now been brought up. I'm a doofus.
Choose the answer you like best!
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