Stealth in C&C

[Zulgyan]

Ok, I would like to discuss and learn about stealth in C&C and how are you Castle Keepers handling this type of situations.

I'm not looking for BTB aswers since the rules are not precisely definied intentionally as a design philosophy option. A good one IMHO.

Ok, I got one first doubt: Wich would be the best way to adjudicate challange classes for hide and move silenty??

Would it be the HD of the listener/spoter? O would it be "for the situation"? Or both?

happy debating,

Z.

[gideon_thorne]

Both. One can use the HD/Level of the being one is trying to get by, modified by the terrain one is in.

Certain class and race combo's simply are more effective in specific types of terrain than others.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Zulgyan]

Another issue:

When a rogue (or any other class with move "silently"), is succesful in it's ability check, the spoter/listener has NO CHANCE of detecting, since there is no sound at all.

Other classes move "quietly" permiting an ability check to detect.

Right?

[serleran]

HD / level (of the would-be stealthed) should be used only if they are being watchful, or are prepared, or whatever, and the situation should always be the key factor in the determination of success, using as complicated a "system" as wanted, factoring in terrain, weather, whether you ate chili beans the day before, and whatever else. Note, too, that some might get a chance to detect based on non-visual means, such as having the Scent ability. Simply succeeding at a hiding or move silently ability check does not mean "moves with complete and total abandon, unable to be detected at all."

[gideon_thorne]

Zulgyan wrote:
Another issue:

When a rogue (or any other class with move "silently"), is succesful in it's ability check, the spoter/listener has NO CHANCE of detecting, since there is no sound at all.

Other classes move "quietly" permiting an ability check to detect.

Right?

You've got it. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
HD / level (of the would-be stealthed) should be used only if they are being watchful, or are prepared, or whatever, and the situation should always be the key factor in the determination of success, using as complicated a "system" as wanted, factoring in terrain, weather, whether you ate chili beans the day before, and whatever else. Note, too, that some might get a chance to detect based on non-visual means, such as having the Scent ability. Simply succeeding at a hiding or move silently ability check does not mean "moves with complete and total abandon, unable to be detected at all."

It does in my game. Thats because part of the CL is the HD of the "creature" your trying to avoid. So if your roll is successful you were not seen or heard. You fail, you were seen or heard.

Using the HD of the creature is giving the chance it has for seeing or hearing your PC.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Zulgyan]

I get it this way...

rogue moving silently succesfully: no chance of being heard. Of course no total abandon and would be spolied if rogue does something stupid.

rogue failing to move silently: he's still moving quietly, chance to be heard, opponent should roll.

non-rogue: if he fails, he can't move quietly and is always detected. If he succeds, he is moving quietly and has a chance of being heard.

[serleran]

Yep, the same way I handle it, actually. Earlier post was simply in regards to what modifiers (difficulty) to use.

[Zulgyan]

Yes, I understood that, just trying to make myself more clear.

Anyway, I think DM discretion would be very free on determining CC. Cause sometimes creatures got high HD but are blind or deaf as an old cow.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I decide what the challenge is, and checks are made against that.

If it's a Thief that's doing it, that's all there is to it. Success means they were completely silent.

If it's a non-Thief, then the challenge is potentially modified by the critter. Success indicates quiet movement which probably won't be noticed.

Usually a Thief doesn't get critter mods added in, unless the critter mod is for some sort of unusual sense or something along those lines.

My operating assumption is that a Thief _expects_ that things are going to be alert, move unexpectedly and all those other things that people just trying to move quietly wouldn't think about.

It also helps to support the class niche (in this case Thief) while still allowing the group to function if there isn't one.

[Fizz]

I set the CL based on the situation, not the detector. It's much easier to make no noise on a soft surface than on a metal surface, say.

Success means the thief makes no noise. Failure determines the relative amount of noise. Say the CC is 15. If he rolls a 2, then CLANG! If he rolls a 14 then click.

I use the same for non-thieves. They'll have enough difficulty sneaking anyways because they don't add their level to the check. So they might be totally silent, but only in the easiest of instances.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

As for hiding, i treat it like old school hide in shadows. To me, anyone can hide easily by getting behind something. If the character says `i get behind the desk', he's hidden. Enough said.

The thief's ability to hide is about remaining unseen despite a lack of objects to get behind. It's about using shadows and camoflage and being able to blend in.

The situation determines the CL (white on white easy, black on white hard, etc), and success means you're not visible to normal vision.

-Fizz

[Breakdaddy]

Zulgyan wrote:
Another issue:

When a rogue (or any other class with move "silently"), is succesful in it's ability check, the spoter/listener has NO CHANCE of detecting, since there is no sound at all.

Other classes move "quietly" permiting an ability check to detect.

Right?

Here is how we do it at my game:

All checks are base 15 (not 12, 18)

If you have a prime in the ability which you are rolling a check for, add +5

Add character Level or HD

Now add ability mods if any.

Roll the same for opponent, and see who rolls higher.

In this way, I can do opposed rolls between creatures and it works very well in our game. I think even Steve has gotten used to playing it this way, at least in my Saturday game.

This is the way I do all my SIEGE checks, not just the opposed ones, BTW.

[Zulgyan]

Oh, I really try to avoid most opposed rolls posible. That's what I like so much about the SIEGE engine and the way C&C treats combat manouvers. It's just so much faster that action flows at fast heartbeating speed!

[Treebore]

Breakdaddy wrote:
Here is how we do it at my game:

All checks are base 15 (not 12, 18)

If you have a prime in the ability which you are rolling a check for, add +5

Add character Level or HD

Now add ability mods if any.

Roll the same for opponent, and see who rolls higher.

In this way, I can do opposed rolls between creatures and it works very well in our game. I think even Steve has gotten used to playing it this way, at least in my Saturday game.

This is the way I do all my SIEGE checks, not just the opposed ones, BTW.

As I understand the SIEGE engine, anytime you add the HD of the opponent as a CL modifier it is an opposed roll. Then say they are an elf, or even more "enhanced senses" kind of creature, you add in fiurther "conditional CL's, based on their "Enhanced senses, terrain, and any other condition the CK feels is warranted.

So to some up, every SIEGE check is an opposed roll. So "the other guy" isn't supposed to get their own roll if you used their HD to set the CL the PC rolled.

So I wouldn't do it your way unless I had some reason to NOT add the HD of the opponent to the CL of the roll. So far I haven't had a reason not to use the SIEGE system as designed. IE add the HD, and other applicalble modifiers, to the SIEGE check.

No additional opposed rolls.

The reason they called it a SIEGE system is because your supposed to use it as an "opposed roll". IE addiing the HD of the opponent.

So if your not adding HD, and have that be the only roll, your not using the SIEGE system in that instance. Your using 3.5E.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Breakdaddy]

Well, the point of my spin on the system wasnt to make for opposed rolls originally, that was just a side effect. The original intent of my method was to avoid the confusion of new players (we had an influx of them) between the 12 and 18 mechanic and ALSO to make things a bit easier on lower level folks. The 15 base makes everything a bit easier overall for lower level characters, since even humans have half of their attributes at non primes and non humans have less than half. Of course the original system works quite nicely, and I wouldnt necessarily change the RAW, just showing an alternative. It's caught on with our group quite nicely, and we kept it. But that's what we're used to.

[BASH MAN]

I would like to point out that the skill is called move SILENTLY. Not move quietly, or step softly. Move SILENTLY. If you successfully move SILENTLY this means there is a 0% chance of somebody hearing you. Thus, the only adjustment to your CL here should be based on the conditions that could impeed your moving silently.

Walking over dry leaves for instance would be pretty hard to do silently, while doing so in soft boots over a stone floor would be the default CL of 0.

The point is the listeners don't have ANY IMPACT AT ALL on whether or not you successfully move silently-- you were silent-- ergo it was impossible for you to be heard by anyone, no matter how good their hearing.

Now failing a move silently roll-- then there is a CHANCE-- that's right a CHANCE-- not a certainty-- that the enemy heard you. You are after all making the same amount of noise as a quiet person in soft boots tip-toeing slowly. If you failed, (unless it is some sort of total botch) you were still moving quietly. I'd give the enemies a chance to hear you (WIS check or M save) with the CL equal to your Level +Dex bonus - any penalties (like if you are wearing too heavy of armor or on the aformentioned dry leaves).

Remember, if you succeed in moving SILENTLY, there is no possible way for anyone to hear you. Even if you fail, it is still not guaranteed that they heard you [why is it that PCs should have crappy odds of hearing enemies but enemies automatically hear PCs?].
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