Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:41 am

I am a huge Savage Worlds fan....I love its fast and furious play. I am an old school rpg player from way back in 1st. and 2nd Edition D&D on down till now and been through a ton of systems.

I am looking for the ultimate fantasy system. Shoud I try Savage Worlds fantasy or Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure?

Also, How is Castles and Crusades vs. Lejendary Adventure? Which should I get? Can you please compare and contrast them? How are their rules in comparison to one-another?

Thanks in advance!

Tank · Post by **Tank** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:09 pm

I was in your place a few months ago - trying to choose which system was better for me. In the end, I chose C&C because it felt a lot closer to traditional Dungeons and Dragons. If that's a factor in your decision, you might want to give C&C a good, hard look.

The best way to decide, however, is to peruse the rules yourself and maybe run a pick-up game. You can find the LA quick start rules here: http://www.lejendary.com/la/template.ph ... tyle=blaze

and the C&C quick start rules here:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/ccqs.html

I'm not familiar with Savage Worlds fantasy, so I'm really not much help there. Best of luck to you!

SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:40 pm

I haven't played LA, so I can't speak to it. But I'm a huge SW fan (converted my group over a few years ago), and just recently started with C&C.

SW and C&C have some big differences. SW is still a bit faster, furiousor system overall, but C&C is a bit more freeform in what characters can/cannot do. SW really uses Edges (and skills, to some extent) to differentiate characters, but in C&C characters are differentiated by their classes, and even simply by what they choose to do - mainly because classes have a few explicit skills/abilities listed, but beyond that, doing Edge-like things is handled by the SIEGE engine.

That said, spells are handled more explicitly in C&C than SW powers (and there are more), which is one of the reasons I picked it up (I was looking for more D&Dish magic). But, it does use the old D&D Vancian "fire and forget" spell system. (It would be easy enough to change that to something else, however.)

It appears to me, much like other D&D flavors, that starting SW characters are much stronger than starting C&C characters, but high level C&C character are much stronger than Legendary SW characters. I think that is a reflection of the overall powercurve of the games.

One of the things I really like about C&C is that, much like SW, it is really easy to add/change things to make it the game you want to play. For example, I'm going to use a customized version of Hindrances and Background Edges (based mostly on SW ones), I've modified spellcasters to make magic more dangerous, I'm probably going to use SW initiative (cards - haven't tried it yet, but I do like the way they flow), I'm going to use the Paizo critical hit deck (modified slightly) and I made a set of C&C adventure cards.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:04 pm

daddystabz wrote:
I am a huge Savage Worlds fan....I love its fast and furious play. I am an old school rpg player from way back in 1st. and 2nd Edition D&D on down till now and been through a ton of systems.

I am looking for the ultimate fantasy system. Shoud I try Savage Worlds fantasy or Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure?

Also, How is Castles and Crusades vs. Lejendary Adventure? Which should I get? Can you please compare and contrast them? How are their rules in comparison to one-another?

Thanks in advance!

Welcome, daddystabz.
Heck, I'd say try them all if you can. I don't know SW, but both C&C are fun fast and for the most part, rules lite and in the case of C&C easy to get the game going quickly.

LA is a fantastic game, but one which may take some getting used to ~ as far as terminology is concerned. But once you get past that, it has a great approach to the game and lots of flexibility in character creation.

Enjoy the game (any or all)!!
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:29 pm

One thing I'm concerned aobut with C&C and LA is how they treat multi-classing. One thing I think D&D 3.0 and 3.5 did right was to allow all sorts of neat multi-classing options to create distinct characters. I don't like it when you are overly punished for this kind of experimentation though.

How do C&C and LA handle multi-classing and is it an option at all?

I read a review of C&C earlier and the review seemed to be very down on how the game handles multi-classing.

The Velvet Souljah · Post by **The Velvet Souljah** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:46 pm

daddystabz wrote:
One thing I'm concerned aobut with C&C and LA is how they treat multi-classing. One thing I think D&D 3.0 and 3.5 did right was to allow all sorts of neat multi-classing options to create distinct characters. I don't like it when you are overly punished for this kind of experimentation though.

How do C&C and LA handle multi-classing and is it an option at all?

I read a review of C&C earlier and the review seemed to be very down on how the game handles multi-classing.

For C&C, there is no "built in" multi-classing option. While some criticize that, I would argue that there is a lot of freedom in that type of approach - you can plug in almost any kind of multiclassing rules you want. In fact, if you take a look at the rules forums, I believe there is a thread about the various types of multiclassing rules.

I have never played LA (so I may be off base here) but I understood that it was not a class-based system but a skill-based system. Obviously, I'm not sure there's much need for multiclassing in a classless system.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:54 pm

daddystabz wrote:
How do C&C and LA handle multi-classing and is it an option at all?

LA doesn't have MC cause there are no classes in LA. Therefore such a rules set is not needed.

C&C? The only 'official' rules per say thus far, are these:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/downlo ... skills.pdf
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:09 pm

That's not true, Peter. Davis included his rules in the same issue of Crusader as Jackal's MC rules and the first part of Sieg's as well. That issue (#4?) had like 4 ways to do multi-classing for C&C, and there is still going to be something on it in the CKG, I imagine (or The Adventurer's Backpack.)

But, umm, yeah, LA is not a game that has classes, but it does have archetypes (via Orders.) Therefore, the only "penalty" for it is in the lack of being able to mete the requirements for a particular Order, if desired (one should get into one since they get coll benefits) but then sacrifices total freedom of Avatar (PC) development.

As for the games in terms of power levels... a LA character is like a 5th level AD&D PC at creation, roughly, and advances pretty slowly. A C&C PC is about a 1st level PC in AD&D and advances slightly slower.

LA uses terms specifically meant to make you stop thinking in AD&D ways, but it is similar once you get your head around the differences.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:38 pm

Perhaps Savage Worlds fantasy is more for me.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:42 pm

serleran wrote:
That's not true, Peter. Davis included his rules in the same issue of Crusader as Jackal's MC rules and the first part of Sieg's as well. That issue (#4?) had like 4 ways to do multi-classing for C&C, and there is still going to be something on it in the CKG, I imagine (or The Adventurer's Backpack.)

Well, I kinda was thinking of things that were out and easily available...^_~`
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SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:43 pm

daddystabz wrote:
Perhaps Savage Worlds fantasy is more for me.

Try it, then try C&C. In fact, you might even try to play the same module/dungeon/scenario in both, and see what you like more. I love SW, but I like the older school feeling of C&C for most fantasy.

I created an old school SW fantasy guide, with something akin to character classes (basically, starting kits), and we played a sample dungeon crawl with it (one of the DCC 29 adventures), but it still didn't feel old school enough for me - hence my interest in C&C.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:12 pm

In some ways i do like how multi classing was done in 3e, so I was thinking of coming up with a similiar kind of XP progression scheme like was done in 3e, but also accounts for how XP's "balance" classes in C&C.

By all means, give Savage Worlds a try. RPG's are meant to be played the way you like most.
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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:03 pm

On multi-classing, I've never been a total fan of it, but accepted it as a way for a character to gain abilities of multiple classes which I liked. So I'm looking forward to seeing if there are rules in the upcomming CKG to just add abilities to classes to get what you want instead of the bulky multi-classing way. I like what Serl had posted a while back about abilities being worth an amount of XP allowing a CK to customize the classes and even create new ones. Having official rules such as those in the CKG would be awesome for C&C IMHO.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:31 pm

Yep, as Serle mentioned, issue 4 (and 5 for the second half of Sieg's article) have some great ideas for MC'ing. I've mentioned multi/dual classing to my group, but so far they (like me) feel comfortable playing C&C, pretty much BtB.

Heh, I'm sure that will change as we go forward.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:53 am

I'd try them both. It depends on what your definition of the ultimate system is, and how you want to run the game.

D&D and C&C excel at a game where you have gradually increasing threat-levels. If you're running mega-dungeon with increasing difficulty on deeper levels, for example, it's really hard to beat D&D class/level approach. While you could run such a mega-dungeon with LA, it's not as good a fit, IMO.

LA takes a different approach. Avatars (PCs) start out decently powerful, but don't advance on a rapidly increasing power-curve in the same way that D&D or C&C characters would. You still advance, it's just not as signficiant. I'd call a beginning Avatar roughly 5th level in D&D "power" terms. This can be very nice, because you start off (and stay in) what many people consider the "sweet spot" of the character "power curve."

LA is skill based, but not highly granular. That's really cool, too. You don't have a lot of fiddly skills, but rather broad skill bundles that cover a lot of capability (and can overlap). It's very flexible. It also provides archetypes you can follow, if you want (Orders). Magic is spell-point based, rather than Vancian. There are lots of other nice touches to the system.

I like both systems. When it comes down to it, though, D&D (and thus C&C) "feels right" to me for fantasy role-playing, and suits how I run most of my games. YMMV.

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:14 pm

Well, I went to Origins yesterday and purchased the new full-color pocket edition and updated rules for Savage Wolds, only costing me $10, btw!

I also purchased Castles and Crusades, Lejendary Adventure essentials, all 4 books of Warlords of the Accordlands (buy 1, get 3 free!), and bought Shadowrun 4th. Edition.

I am ready to GAME!

In browsing through C&C it looks sooooo similar to old school 1st. Edition D&D to me it is interesting. Does anyone have links to where I can find stuff like multiclassing rules to go with C&C and maybe stuff about epic levels, etc?

Thanks!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:25 pm

Scroll down to Castle Zagyg stuff, its the third download in that section.
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/downloads/index.html

As for Epic levels, judging by my game, that is still a year or two down the road, and I don't know of anyone who has run an "epic" campaign.

I imagine it will be much like running a 20+ level game back in 1E and 2E.
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:24 pm

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:23 am

There are some alternate multi-class rules and other stuff available in the C&C section at Dragonsfoot -- worth checking out.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:49 am

daddystabz wrote:
I am ready to GAME!

Heh, yeah I bet!! Where to start?? Nice buys.

Enjoy!
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:20 am

Thanks all! You have all been so helpful.

Besides what all I bought at Origins I have also picked up lately: Deadlands Reloaded, Pirates of the Spanish Main, Necessary Evil (adapating Marvel Comics characters into it fo a Marvel campaign), d20 Dark Matter, Rippers (for a dark gothic 19th. century horror campaign), and Star Wars Saga Edition (Fantastic rules revision...will be playing in a goup at a local store).

daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:27 am

How simple is it to learn C&C?

I am tempted to dive into it and learn it.

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:31 am

daddystabz wrote:
How simple is it to learn C&C?

I am tempted to dive into it and learn it.

I think it depends on who you're teaching, to be honest. Are they complete newbies to RPG's? Probably 20-30 minutes of learning curve.

Have the played any version of D&D before? If so, a quick 60 second explanation on how the SIEGE engine & primes works and they should be pretty much ready to roll.

Congrats on your mega-purchase!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:34 am

daddystabz wrote:
How simple is it to learn C&C?

I am tempted to dive into it and learn it.

I've taught complete gaming newbies how to play C&C in less than 10 minutes. And most of that was a 'what is an rpg' lecture.
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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:37 am

Very cool!

I'm an old vet for RPGs and for D&D too. I bet I myself could learn it quickly if I sit down tonight and read it. I'm getting a fantasy itching and am wanting to either start or get into a campaign.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:39 am

If I can successfully teach my significant other and get her playing... I would say it's fairly simple. She wasn't open to the idea at all but promised me to give it a try... Now she's a regular player!

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daddystabz · Post by **daddystabz** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:44 am

How does it stand up against 3.5 D&D?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:34 am

daddystabz wrote:
How does it stand up against 3.5 D&D?

Faster, more intellegent design ideas, and a major drop in the munchies rules.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:36 am

Heh, more flexible, less rules-lawyering, more play, faster play, easier to grasp, and indescribably more fun. Its mostly the opposite of d20.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:42 am

daddystabz wrote:
How does it stand up against 3.5 D&D?

That all depends on what you want.

3E is a wonderfully complex system that allows you itemized lists of customizations that require Excel spreadsheets to accurately keep track of all the various changes spell effects cause acrosss the board when you get around the 14th level of play.

Plus you advance so fast your character has to pull out his character sheet to remember everything he knows.

Actually it is a good system. It is very complicated, even in combat, that you will end up spending a lot of time verifying rulings that ruin the "adventure".

But if your into rules details telling you, the DM, how to run your game, how to judge every possible rules issue, to the point where you can't remember everything, and that if you want completely written up NPC's your going to spend a half hour to an hour doing just one, then 3E is definitely something to look into.

Since your into Star Wars Saga your not far of from full blown 3E, even though I do like a lot of the changes they made for SAGA.

But if you want something that just helps you "go on an adventure", then C&C, Basic Fantasy, Savage Worlds, and others are better ways to go about doing it.
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Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure

Castles and Crusades or Lejendary Adventure

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