WoTC and 4E

froglegg · Post by **froglegg** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:29 am

All I can say is WOTC will not get any more money from me. Troll yes WOTC no.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:06 am

WORD!

dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:58 pm

I had one year of Business Law in college, so I decided to pop on over to WotC and read the GSL for 4e.
If I read the agreement correctly, all the following statements are true:

1) Section 18 gives WotC the right to produce an exact duplicate of your Intellectual Property.

2) Section 10 then gives them the right to sue you for infringing on 'their' intellectual property.

3) When they sue you for infringement, you have to pay for their legal bills.

(And you can't ask for a trial by jury)

Can you say "Poison Pill?"
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:57 pm

Heh, the last few posters hit the nail on the head for certain.

WotC used to get 80-95% of my gaming budget. The only thing I might continue getting is the Dungeon Tiles. Honestly, I was/am considering getting Manual of the Planes because while I do prefer the Great Wheel, I am intrigued on the changes they're making. Don't know if I'll buy it or not though. The way they f'd everything up - the rules themselves, the FR setting, and lord knows what else - I might just skip it. It seems like they have unlimited potential when it comes to f'ing things up. So my gaming budget is being spent on Paizo stuff, old AD&D/D&D products, and (of course) C&C.

The poison pill was some hotly debated stuff. Clark Peterson, who was so far up WotC's...um, well...Clark was a staunch supporter of 4e, to say the least (no offense, Clark...love ya!); even he was ready to end support for it unless it got fixed. No one, or very few, were on board as publishers and many started circumnavigating the GSL altogether. That lead to WotC redoing the GSL last I heard. I don't know if the revision is done or not. It was a freaking joke to say the least...kind of like 4e, in my opinion.

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:58 am

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, is downloading the greatest form of protest?
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:40 am

papercut wrote:
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, is downloading the greatest form of protest?

I guess it depends on what you download.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:46 am

I download porn to protest the degradation of women.

Really, thats why.

I swear.

dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:22 pm

Since 4e plays a lot like a video game anyway, it would be cool if someone re-released Diablo for D & D. I always liked that campaign. Beat up monsters and take their stuff!
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:25 pm

I'd rather see Blizzard license it out to a company that can make a complete Diablo RPG with it's own system and books. WOTC's was ok but it cold have been so much more.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:38 pm

dutch206 wrote:
Since 4e plays a lot like a video game anyway, it would be cool if someone re-released Diablo for D & D. I always liked that campaign. Beat up monsters and take their stuff!

Heh. That's an interesting viewpoint, dutch.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:02 pm

Beating up monsters for loot is a staple of the gaming industry... its what we all do.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:12 am

Yup Serl, I was doing that long before I had a video game system in the house. I reckon many of us were.

And maybe I'm just weird, but if I wanna play a video game I actually go and.....uh...play a video game.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:15 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yup Serl, I was doing that long before I had a video game system in the house. I reckon many of us were.

And maybe I'm just weird, but if I wanna play a video game I actually go and.....uh...play a video game.

I know it's not the point you were trying to make, DD, but that's why I've kept 4e off my shelf.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:21 am

And I know it's the cool thing to say 4e is a video game, but if you're going for accuracy then comparing it to a skirmish game would actually not be quite so erroneous.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:29 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
And I know it's the cool thing to say 4e is a video game, but if you're going for accuracy then comparing it to a skirmish game would actually not be quite so erroneous.

I'm being partly facetitous when I make 4e comparisons to a video game, but you would simply not believe the sheer number of people that make that comparison. In almost every conversation, on the internet and in person someone always either makes a comparison to a video game or, more specifically, Warcraft. I've heard teh tabletop skirmish game comparison, but not as much as the other. And in all seriousness, when that many people from that many varied sources all say the same thing, I begin to wonder about its validity.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:37 am

Yeah, it is all over, like a 3e grognard talking point. I think they must blog about it. When I hear it repeatedly from folks who never played the game, I lend no credence to it's validity. It's just hard to take seriously.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:04 am

Well, if it makes you feel any better I've heard it from people who have tried it.
And why do you have to bring up 3e in the conversation? I was trying to lay low on any edition war goodness, considering the topic was 4e. I know you get sore about 4e bashing, man, and I don't do it to get your goat, and I try not to make up crap for sake of argument. I'm not saying you're doing any of that either - I'm just letting you know that I'm not purposely trying to be an ass to ya.
I just think it's odd that after all this time, it's still so hotly talked about. I mean, I remember the 2nd Edition is doom talk, and the 3rd edition is doomier talk, but I seriously don't recall it being this bad. I know the internet is to blame for some of that, though. I don't even let 4e bother me anaymore - it's happened, there's nothing to do about it, and I have to move on. It got me to C&C, so in the end I'm kind of thankful 4e ruined D&D for me.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:40 am

Because, in my experience anyways, the most vocal detractors of 4e are often those who had a vested interest in 3e and the change still stings for them. I was in the same boat several years ago.

For those of us who lost interest in WotC's doings long ago, 4e is just another game (in my case another game that I enjoy, but still just another game none-the-less).

There's a lot of games that I think suck, I just don't feel the need to make jabs at them every opportunity I get. Given some time, the 4e hollering will die down too, I just wish more of the hollering came from a point of experience and not the rote recitations that everyone seems to mimic.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:05 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
I don't even let 4e bother me anaymore - it's happened, there's nothing to do about it, and I have to move on. It got me to C&C, so in the end I'm kind of thankful 4e ruined D&D for me.

Oh, and to me, this is a cool thing. The dissatisfaction the d20 crowd has with 4e is great to me. It makes it more likely someone will pick up a C&C PHB and take a look. They might grab a copy of Warhammer, Palladium Fantasy or whatever and discover a whole world of new and interesting games out there that need some love too.

I'm looking forward to when they put down the rocks, pick up some dice and get their game on. I think it's a great (if rowdy) time for gaming.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:10 am

Hell I've heard 2e compared to a video game. The point is though that most RPG video games were based on D&D.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:23 am

Well, Im not "d20 crowd," just in case you thought I was. Sure, I played it, and I enjoyed it, but I played and enjoyed a lot more than that (and still do)...just in case there was any confusion.

Now, I will admit that I have little experience with the game, in practice. I've read through the core books, though. My impressions are mostly my own, or ones that were voiced by someone else, with more experience in 4e than I, and ones that I happen to agree with in retrospect of perusing the rules. One thing I try to do is not take anyone just "shooting off at the mouth" too seriously, even those who detract from 4e.
But in your post two posts back you talk about the majority of the detractors of 4e being 3e players - and to that I say, "well, duh!" The major detractor of 2nd Edition was 1st Edition players, and the same for 3rd Edition with 2nd Edition players. The biggest detractors of nWoD were oWoD players. Thats just the way it is.

And yeah, there are a lot of games that do suck. But how many people are affected if you or I think Scion sucks? Or Shadowrun? Those aren't D&D. I kind of alluded to this statement in that other thread we were debating - The gaming industry goes as D&D goes. I don't like that fact, but that's how I feel. There are no press releases on Yahoo when GURPS goes to a new edition. It's the talk of the town, the A-list celebrity doing crack in the bathroom. When it flubs, there's going to be talk about it.

I know you like it, DD, and there's nothing wrong with that. You're not "wrong" for liking it. I just hope you don't feel that people's dissing (my dissing included) of the game is an indirect insult of you. My comments and criticisms are directed solely at 4e, for the record, as I'm sure everyone elses are as well.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:24 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
The point is though that most RPG video games were based on D&D.

Very true, sir...very true.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:31 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
But in your post two posts back you talk about the majority of the detractors of 4e being 3e players - and to that I say, "well, duh!" The major detractor of 2nd Edition was 1st Edition players, and the same for 3rd Edition with 2nd Edition players. The biggest detractors of nWoD were oWoD players. Thats just the way it is.

Exactly, which is why in my post I said I was in the same boat a few years back. Folks will move on and we'll have this upheaval again in a few years. Such is the nature of the beast.

And no, I don't take offense LD, nor do I feel like its making attacks against me. You're a cool dude as far as I'm concerned.

I will admit to growing tired of seeing the same, drum jabs being taken over and over by folks all over the internet (in this case in a thread posted asking folks to refrain of all places heh). It'd be more intersting if folks at least came up with non-regurgitated stuff.

4e raped my male dog!

WotC was taken over by communist alien zombies and 4e is secretly encoded with high tech hypnotic mind control devices!

See? That'd at least be interesting and creative. it also has the added bonus of being almost as factually correct as most of the 3e fanboy mouth frothing you see on some sites.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:51 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Exactly, which is why in my post I said I was in the same boat a few years back. Folks will move on and we'll have this upheaval again in a few years. Such is the nature of the beast.

And no, I don't take offense LD, nor do I feel like its making attacks against me. You're a cool dude as far as I'm concerned.

I will admit to growing tired of seeing the same, drum jabs being taken over and over by folks all over the internet (in this case in a thread posted asking folks to refrain of all places heh). It'd be more intersting if folks at least came up with non-regurgitated stuff.

4e raped my male dog!

WotC was taken over by communist alien zombies and 4e is secretly encoded with high tech hypnotic mind control devices!

See? That'd at least be interesting and creative. it also has the added bonus of being almost as factually correct as most of the 3e fanboy mouth frothing you see on some sites.

I understand your frustration, hoss. I suppose if I was in the same prediciment, I would be bothered, too.

I must say that it strikes me quite odd though. Sure, some people are probably just echoing popular opinion (or whatever you want to call it) when it comes to 4e bashing. I will accept that. But I don't believe it's one big conspiracy. I don't think everyone's read the same "4e is crap" blog, and are just repeating it everywhere they go. I would like to believe that most of the people have been able to come to their own opinion on the matter. I dunno, DD - please don't be offended when I say this - it seems that whenever the subject of 4e being an inferior product comes up, the ones who bring it up are accused of being a bunch of no-nothing twits. I can understand being defensive of your game of choice, but when so much negativity comes from so many different places I think there's more to it than simplly, "Hey, let's bash 4e becaause it's fun!"
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:21 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
I think there's more to it than simplly, "Hey, let's bash 4e becaause it's fun!"

I personally think it's more of a "Lets bash 4e because my $4k worth of 3e books make me sad."

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:30 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I personally think it's more of a "Lets bash 4e because my $4k worth of 3e books make me sad."

I for one got over 3E several years ago and still own my $5,000+ worth of 3E books, and I still have no love for 4E after playing it for two months.

The good news is I had a lot of fun converting the 4E Goodman DCC Sellswords of Punjar to C&C and running it as a bunch of "One Shots" for Friday on line players. They had a lot of fun playing too, you can read their comments down in the online game forums. So 4E isn't a total waste, the modules are still good for C&C.
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:28 pm

Treebore wrote:
The good news is I had a lot of fun converting the 4E Goodman DCC Sellswords of Punjar to C&C and running it as a bunch of "One Shots" for Friday on line players. They had a lot of fun playing too, you can read their comments down in the online game forums. So 4E isn't a total waste, the modules are still good for C&C.

QFT
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:16 am

Unbelievable! PHB2 has been out for a week, and they've already had to make an errata page for it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:31 am

A timely dispensation of errata!?!?! I'd much rather have incorrect information.

Coleston the Cavalier · Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:21 am

I add errata to BHP products.
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