Monday Ravenloft group discussion thread

[Rigon]

Ok, looking back, we have 2 Paladins, 1 Fighter, 1 Ranger, and 1 Cleric with Rhu waiting to decide between a Cleric or Paladin.

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Tadhg]

Rigon wrote:
Ok, looking back, we have 2 Paladins, 1 Fighter, 1 Ranger, and 1 Cleric with Rhu waiting to decide between a Cleric or Paladin.

R-

I'm now thinking this party seriously needs the services of a . . . Bard!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Rigon]

Rhuvein wrote:
I'm now thinking this party seriously needs the services of a . . . Bard!

I think you meant to say cleric or wizard there.

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Aramis]

Rhuvein wrote:
I'm now thinking this party seriously needs the services of a . . . Bard!

Yeah, or maybe a thief acrobat. Or maybe a herbalist.

With the party we have presently, we have a front line of maybe 5 fighters, with one cleric between them. Can't see anything possibly going wrong there!
Let me give you a visual hint at what we are looking for

either a
or a
Or, maybe this guy


_________________


No plan survives meeting the enemy

-- Moltke

[Tadhg]

Aramis wrote:
Yeah, or maybe a thief acrobat. Or maybe a herbalist.

You tempt me. Thief-acrobat ~ a gnome of course.

Hmm, herbalist - could score some mushrooms growing out of the dungeon wall for his noodle soup!
The bard does have some interesting abilities at 8th and 9th level.

I hesitate on wizard, but if he can get some magical armor protection, I might be able to "beef" him up to have a chance for survival.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Aramis]

Rhuvein wrote:
The bard does have some interesting abilities at 8th and 9th level.

I hesitate on wizard, but if he can get some magical armor protection, I might be able to "beef" him up to have a chance for survival.

You make two good points Rhu.

One, some classes, especially at the higher levels, can give benefits to the entire party. Knight and Bard being the most obvious example, but my Paladin, wielding a Holy Avenger, will also offer many benefits to those who stay close to me.

But I really think we need some mage-ing from somewhere. Does not have to be you by any means, but by Pelor, someone must offer artillery to this merry band.

The second point you have made well is that one of our foci for character building is what they told you in your first class of boxing lessons. Lesson number one: don't get hit

Everyone's character should devote some thought (and $$) to a means to not get hit, since the physical attacks of undead are not that onerous. But that potential level loss per hit is a real doozy. If you think finishing Ravenloft at 9th level is hard, wait until you are trying to finish it at 5th level

And, as presently constituted, we will not have very many restorations from clerics to rely on either.
_________________
"Kids, you tried your best, and you failed miserably. The lesson is: never try"

Homer Simpson

[Treebore]

Of the 73 adventurers who went into Ravenloft 52 ended it with no levels. Which means they became vampires.

I believe Titania is going to be a fighter and Clemson is going to be a Paladin. A wizard is not critical as long as you have clerics. A wizard will help end combats faster, though. Thats a good thing against level draining undead. Especially if your clerics are the ones who lose the levels and can't cast the higher level spells anymore. Hence the importance of scrolls, potions, wands, staves, etc....
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Aramis]

I think the secrets to avoiding being hit can be seen in this highly classified video from the Department of Vampire Affairs, in London
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ

God speed, everyone!

_________________
"Kids, you tried your best, and you failed miserably. The lesson is: never try"

Homer Simpson

[Rigon]

I love that skit.

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Treebore]

That is just twisted. horribly, horribly twisted. I like it!
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Tadhg]

Aramis wrote:
I think the secrets to avoiding being hit can be seen in this highly classified video from the Department of Vampire Affairs, in London
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ

God speed, everyone!

Fantastic!!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Aramis]

Treebore wrote:
Of the 73 adventurers who went into Ravenloft 52 ended it with no levels. Which means they became vampires.

I believe Titania is going to be a fighter and Clemson is going to be a Paladin. A wizard is not critical as long as you have clerics. A wizard will help end combats faster, though. Thats a good thing against level draining undead. Especially if your clerics are the ones who lose the levels and can't cast the higher level spells anymore. Hence the importance of scrolls, potions, wands, staves, etc....

Good points, Treebore. And that stat in the first line is a little startling!

Another reason to have a mage is, if 25% of the magic items we find are wands of fire etc., won't a mage be the only one who can use them? Not sure how treasure heavy Ravenloft is (it better be very heavy! )

The main reason I like to have a mage in every high level party is because they give you a different more creative style of attack. Think of it like rock, paper, scissors. If you can just do rock and paper, you will meet your Waterloo very shortly. But with a mage in there, the DM never knows if his big bad monster for the level might miss a save and be slowed, or held, or charmed, or disintegrated. With all fighters, it is more predictable. I do 18 h.p. to you, you do 17 to me (or, more likely: 87 to me! )

my almost completely ignorant guess as to optimal 6 person party composition for undead fighting would probably be: 2 warriors (probably paladins, but maybe 1 ranger or knight), 2 clerics, 1 mage, and one optional.

The optional cannot be a monk, illusionist , assassin or druid I guess and even a rogue might be misplaced. A Bard might help. Another mage would not go amiss, or another warrior. But probably a third cleric would be best.

All those clerics give you lots of turning, lots of healing, lots of restoration, plus the clerics can buff the party to greater combat excellence, and clerics are pretty good at fighting themselves.

I'm sure Slimy can handle the role of three clerics . I predict he will start to hear the plaintive cry "Medic!" in his sleep

_____________

It is with our judgements as our watches, none

Go alike, yet each believes his own

--Alexander Pope

[Rigon]

While Aramis makes some really good arguements, I've outfitted my Undead Hunter with some useful (at least I think so) equipment. Now if only Treebore rolls that 1 in the right spot.
R-

Edit: However, another medic... er, cleric would be helpful. But no pressure Rhu, play what you like. We can take him... besides, there's always next year.
R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Aramis]

Rigon wrote:
no pressure Rhu, play what you like. We can take him... besides, there's always next year.
R-

Seconded. Everyone should play what they want. We will win on sheer verve and panache.

I mean, it's a realm completely filled with undead, led by a vampire lord who has slain 73! previous fully outfitted adventurers. How can we not win utterly?


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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will cramp his style

-Steven Brust

[Tadhg]

Well, I'm completely blown away when looking at the wizard at 9th level and the spell selection - both good and bad. Load of fun and interesting spells and such, but also lots of questions.

Same with magic items and other stuff.

So, I have questions that you veterans could help with and then of course, Treebore's final CK adjudication on the answers will be welcome.

Tree, should I ask my questions here or in the "generic" Ravenloft thread right here in the C&C online forum?

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Rigon]

Rhu, I'd like to help you out with this, but I've only played 2 or 3 wizard types in over 15 years of playing rpgs and those have all been low (1-3) level characters. I'm not much into spell usage; I just like to hit things.

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Tadhg]

Rigon wrote:
Rhu, I'd like to help you out with this, but I've only played 2 or 3 wizard types in over 15 years of playing rpgs and those have all been low (1-3) level characters. I'm not much into spell usage; I just like to hit things.

R-

Thanks. Yeah, I've hardly ever played a wizard, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to give this a try for this game.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Rigon]

Rhuvein wrote:
Thanks. Yeah, I've hardly ever played a wizard, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to give this a try for this game.

Cool. Then I would suggest that you 1. get the best protection allowed (I believe Tree said in the main Ravenloft thread that he was allowing wizards to have up to a +5 for protection. 2. Stock up on wands of fireball, lightening bolt, magic circle against evil, and maybe feeblemind. 3. Then get yourself some kind of staff. 4. Pray for bad rolls on Treebores side...

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

[Treebore]

Rhuvein wrote:
Well, I'm completely blown away when looking at the wizard at 9th level and the spell selection - both good and bad. Load of fun and interesting spells and such, but also lots of questions.

Same with magic items and other stuff.

So, I have questions that you veterans could help with and then of course, Treebore's final CK adjudication on the answers will be welcome.

Tree, should I ask my questions here or in the "generic" Ravenloft thread right here in the C&C online forum?

Discuss it here. If the other teams aren't smart enough to see what strategies the other teams are working out, their loss.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Aramis]

Rhuvein wrote:
Well, I'm completely blown away when looking at the wizard at 9th level and the spell selection - both good and bad. Load of fun and interesting spells and such, but also lots of questions.

Same with magic items and other stuff.

So, I have questions that you veterans could help with and then of course, Treebore's final CK adjudication on the answers will be welcome.

Rigon wrote:
Rhu, I'd like to help you out with this, but I've only played 2 or 3 wizard types in over 15 years of playing rpgs and those have all been low (1-3) level characters. I'm not much into spell usage; I just like to hit things.

That is interesting. I was always the opposite. Probably 90% of my characters had some kind of spellcasting (or psionics).

Glad to have a wizard along, Rhu. Although, be careful where you point that fireball, rookie!
One key thing to remember about the wizard is: he is there to do only one or two clever things per encounter. You need not "do something" each round. Size up the opponents, size up what your party can do, and pick the spell that best solves the problem.

Sometimes you will be able to target a flying foe that the rest of the party cannot reach, or "slow" a dragon, or whatever. Just doing that one clever thing can totally change an encounter

Playing a spellcaster is more about flashes of creativity and using what you have in the best way possible.

As to particular spells and magic items and so on, we can chat on skype some monday if you would like. One key thing to emphasise is come up with a multi layered defense model that makes you hard to find/hit/touch/have spells cast upon you.

Stick with Simara kid, and you should be fine (no really, sticking very close to me will protect you from many spells and some other baleful effects like fear)

Rhuvein wrote:
Tree, should I ask my questions here

Not here! The DM may be listening in! Ixnay on the rategystay alktay


_________________
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Inigo Montoya: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.

Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.

Inigo Montoya: Probably he means no *harm*.

Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.

Inigo Montoya: You have a great gift for rhyme.

Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.

Vizzini: Enough of that!

Inigo Montoya: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?

Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!

Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!

Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?

Vizzini: DYEEAAHHHHHH!!

[Tadhg]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm really getting excited about this game. I'm learning tons of stuff about C&C that I didn't know.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Tadhg]

Treebore wrote:
Discuss it here. If the other teams aren't smart enough to see what strategies the other teams are working out, their loss.

Thanks Tree.

Let the questions begin:

I noticed that magic rods can be used by any class (pg. 117 M&T) and that other magic items can be used by any class as well . . . armor, shields, rings, weapons, but what about:

scrolls - must be read by a mu only?

staves, wands? didn't see any restrictions.

Thanks.
[edit - changed page number to 117]
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Tadhg]

Magic armor/items stacking!!!

Heh, I don't know if that question was ever resolved in your thread, Treebore and as it's 11 pages or so, I couldn't quite bring myself to read through it again, BUT . . .

I saw this on page 87 bottom left - limit on magic items worn. Seems to clarify many of the questions on this.

So for me, I can have a ring of protect +1 and an amulet of natural armor +2 for a combo AC bonus of +3, correct?

Thanks.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Tadhg]

Can I make magic scrolls following the table on page 89 of the M&T?

If so, I have a question:

Suppose I create a 7th lvl spell - 2 higher than my level. In the PH (page 48), it says I can do this, but need to do an INT check with a penalty of the spell lvl, i.e. 7. So the CB is 12 + the CL 7, so the challenge class (CC) is 19.

So I need to roll a 19 to succeed, then?

Incidentally, would I add my level (9) or just the attribute modifier of my INT (+3) ?

Thanks.

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Treebore]

[

Let the questions begin:

I noticed that magic rods can be used by any class (pg. 117 M&T) and that other magic items can be used by any class as well . . . armor, shields, rings, weapons, but what about:

1. scrolls - must be read by a mu only?

Scrolls are useable by the class that writes them. All spellcaster classes can write scrolls. In my home game I allow scrolls to be written from 1st level on.

2. staves, wands? didn't see any restrictions.

Basically I follow 3E on this one. If the spell is on the classes spell lists they can use that spell function. So a Wand of cure light wounds is useable by a Druid and a Cleric, but not Wiz or Ill.

Thanks.
Your welcome.

[edit - changed page number to 117][/quote]
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Tadhg]

Holy water!

Can I assume that any/all of us can purchase/acquire vials of holy water after donating/tithing to our cleric's church. And so, would we then be able to bring as many vials as we can carry.

I've been using 2d4s for HW damage per the old free M&T, but I see the CK screen lists damage at 1d8. Cool.

Thanks.

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Treebore]

Magic armor/items stacking!!!

1. Heh, I don't know if that question was ever resolved in your thread, Treebore and as it's 11 pages or so, I couldn't quite bring myself to read through it again, BUT . . .

For me I have always stated I use the 3E rules for this.

2. I saw this on page 87 bottom left - limit on magic items worn. Seems to clarify many of the questions on this.

Nope, not everything.

3. So for me, I can have a ring of protect +1 and an amulet of natural armor +2 for a combo AC bonus of +3, correct?

This particular combo does work.

Thanks.

Your welcome.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Treebore]

Holy water!

1. Can I assume that any/all of us can purchase/acquire vials of holy water after donating/tithing to our cleric's church. And so, would we then be able to bring as many vials as we can carry.

Within reason, Say 10 vials without a bandelero or bag of holding. Bag of Holding? You could say a 100 vials and I wouldn't question it. As long as it falls within your 90,000 GP limit.

2. I've been using 2d4s for HW damage per the old free M&T, but I see the CK screen lists damage at 1d8. Cool.

Yes, cool.

Thanks.

No problem.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Tadhg]

Treebore wrote:
So a Wand of cure light wounds is useable by a Druid and a Cleric, but not Wiz or Ill.

OK, thanks. I just concentrate on my class/magic wand type spells and let our clerics worry about healing and such!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Aramis]

Rhuvein wrote:
Can I make magic scrolls following the table on page 89 of the M&T?

If so, I have a question:

Suppose I create a 7th lvl spell - 2 higher than my level. In the PH (page 48), it says I can do this, but need to do an INT check with a penalty of the spell lvl, i.e. 7. So the CB is 12 + the CL 7, so the challenge class (CC) is 19.

So I need to roll a 19 to succeed, then?

Incidentally, would I add my level (9) or just the attribute modifier of my INT (+3) ?

Thanks.

Good to see you are already coming up with some good ideas, Rhu.

I am not sure the above idea will work. The rule on PH is for mages to _use_ a scroll of a higher spell level, I think. Not write. To write a scroll, the spell must be in your spellbook ("the spells that can be inscribed are those that they know and can cast" M&T p.87)

Treebore is of course the final authority on all of this

You are on the right track though, having a few scrolls of 6th or 7th level spells would be very handy.

(always keep in mind, as a mage, half your spells will fail through saves, spell resistance, wrong spell choice etc. So you need a few backups)

One thing that sort of startles me is the stated XP cost of magic item creation. I could be misreading them, but they seem quite high (M&T p. 88). The XP costs for scrolls and potions were hard to find, but they list the XP cost of making a wand of fireballs, for example, as the # of XPs to be the right level to cast the spell. So wand of fireballs costs 20,801 XP to make!

By contrast, in 3rd ed. a wand of fireballs would cost 11,250 g.p. and cost 450 XP. Yes, you read that right

20,801 XP vs. 450 XP!

(I am not actually ridiculing the C&C way, as I find the 3rd edition way is much too easy to make items. I am merely noting the huge difference between the two)

(also, it lists another method, merely paying a $$ "cost" for an item (M&T p.89). So maybe there is a way to do it, XP free? If so, I do not see why anyone would do it the XP cost way. It is a bit unclear)

If Treebore is deductiing those XPs from your total, you may find it is "cheaper" just to buy the items. But make your own potions and scrolls if those are XP free. Heck, forget level drain from undead, you might spend so many XPs making items, you are 5th level going in!

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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

-Arthur Schopenhauer