Monday Ravenloft group discussion thread

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:17 pm

Aramis wrote:
To write a scroll, the spell must be in your spellbook ("the spells that can be inscribed are those that they know and can cast" M&T p.87)

Thanks Aramis. You are right. So I guess the question becomes, can I buy a scroll at the same place where we are purchasing these other magic items!
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Aramis · Post by **Aramis** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:04 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is wands you make (or buy) have 50 charges . My point is, for some things, you may not need to have 50 of something. It might be better to have 5 of 10 different spells, rather than 50 of that one. Remember, most of the spells you cast will be the ones you memorized. Wands etc. are merely a supplement

Treebore might let you set the charges to 10, or 20, or whatever you want. So low charge wands, or scrolls, might be a better way to go.

Some kind of low level damage wand is probably a really good idea for those many rounds when you do not want to use a powerful spell, but want to contribute to the damage (while keeping your distance! ). A wand of magic missiles is low cost, but as a 9th level caster, your missiles would be pretty potent. And you do not need to roll to hit, there are no immunities (besides SR), and I think it even affects non corporeal undead types

Treebore: can paladins use clerical items, like wands of cure light wounds? They could before C&C I think, since they were spellcasters, just wondering what your take is.

Given that we only have 1 cleric, I might needs tae gets me a wand of cure light wounds!

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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:24 am

Aramis wrote:
And you do not need to roll to hit, there are no immunities (besides SR), and I think it even affects non corporeal undead types

Yep, wands and staves seem to be a good way to go. And it seems, that most, if not all undead do NOT have SR!!
Whew, or we would probably not have a friggin' chance.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:20 am

I have a couple of questions- the M&T says there are protection scrolls vs undead and the like but offer no price to purchase such.

I would like to purchase scrolls of protection vs Energy Drain.

Also I'd like to slap the creator /writer of the M&T for not allowing a saving throw for the Vampires energy drain attack.

that seems unfair in the extreme and mostly no fun to play against.

Aramis · Post by **Aramis** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:32 am

Wulfgarn wrote:
I have a couple of questions- the M&T says there are protection scrolls vs undead and the like but offer no price to purchase such.

I would like to purchase scrolls of protection vs Energy Drain.

Also I'd like to slap the creator /writer of the M&T for not allowing a saving throw for the Vampires energy drain attack.

that seems unfair in the extreme and mostly no fun to play against.

I think the "save" the character gets is under "Blood Drain" (M&T p.82). After you are hit, you make a strength save. If you fail, the vampire can bite you, which drains _2_ levels, plus 1 every round thereafter! Yikes.

So there is a bit of a save, but fail it once and you are in trouble

That does bring up a question I had though. This may be obviously written somewhere in the M&T, but do characters always get a Constitution Save against undead energy drains? I can't see a specific mention under wraith or vampire or wight that you get a save. But in the Player's Handbook, one of the archetypal instances of Constitution saves is listed as "Energy Drain" (PH, p. 112-113). And it says "an energy drain attack takes away levels or attribute scores from the victim unless a successful saving throw is made (PH p.113)

So I think you do get a Con save. So for the vampire, you would actually get two rolls, by my reading (a STR save to resist the bite, and then a Con save to resist the drain). Make either roll and you are fine (for a round )

Wulfgarn, the first line of defense is do not get hit (either through personal defence, or having clerics to turn them away, or killling them before they get to you, and so on). After that, you will have a Con save, and maybe a STR save too (against vampires anyway). So there is hope. And worst come to worst, if a few attacks do penetrate, your cleric has hopefully not lost enough levels so that he cannot cast restoration on the unfortunate party members

Remember, they are just as afraid of you, as you are of them! (Not really )

I agree with you though, when you actually read what they can do, it is tought to see how a party can always make their saves and so on.

Plus, Treebore is a pretty smart DM, although he is fair to the players, and has some generous house rules, so we have that going for us.

Good luck to your team, you will need it!

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:49 pm

The M&T went old school on saves versus Energy Drain (IE 1E and 2E) with no saves.

Note that the Blood Drain and the Energy Drain of a Vampire are very different from each other.

Plus, since C&C took Energy Drain "old school" I use my "old school" house rule for it. That is if you lose levels to a creature, then destroy it before 24 hours is up, you get your levels back. This is assuming it takes the undead a while to actually matabolise the energy it drained from you, so you have basically a day before your life energy is truly gone for good.

So while your considering your magic item purchases you will definitely want to think about items that protect you from drains as well as restores your losses.
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Aramis · Post by **Aramis** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:24 pm

Treebore wrote:
The M&T went old school on saves versus Energ y Drain (IE 1E and 2E) with no saves..

Wow, thanks for clearing that up Treebore. That sounds crazy tough then. I wonder why they have that line about energy drain saves in the Player's Handbook?

Wulfgarn may be right, Ravenloft might be unbeatable if there are no saves. No-save life draining makes sense in a normal module, where characters battle past many mundane foes on the way to the climax, where they face one undead, lose a few levels and succeed. But fighting non stop level drainers with no save sounds nigh on impossible

Treebore wrote:
Note that the Blood Drain and the Energy Drain of a Vampire are very different from each other. .

They are different, but fortunately for us, the vampire cannot energy drain, if he does not succeed on the blood drain

"along with the blood drain, living creatures hit by a vampire's bite attack instantly lose two levels or hit dice" (M&T p.82)

Treebore wrote:
Plus, since C&C took Energy Drain "old school" I use my "old school" house rule for it. That is if you lose levels to a creature, then destroy it before 24 hours is up, you get your levels back. This is assuming it takes the undead a while to actually matabolise the energy it drained from you, so you have basically a day before your life energy is truly gone for good.

So while your considering your magic item purchases you will definitely want to think about items that protect you from drains as well as restores your losses.

2 items that I have found that do this are: potions of restoration (but you can only buy 5 of these), and scarabs of protection(actually Titania found that one), which provide protection against 12 levels lost, as well as some Spell Resistance, but these are very expensive

I have not found much else. And I am madly flipping the pages every night!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:00 pm

You didn't read the "Energy Drain" description right after the blood drain. Plus my M&T does not have that sentence you quoted. You must have the second printing. According to what I have the slam attack does 2 levels of loss, immeidately, with no save. W hen they do the bite they lose 1d4 HP's per round, Then, according to the Energy Drain paragraph, they alos lose one level per round on top of the blood damage. I'll find my M&T second printing and compare their wording.

Ravenloft is beatable. Its just very, very hard.

Write up scrolls, I like how the M&T allows you to make scrolls from 7th level on, so I'll allow you to make scrolls. M&T page 87.

Everyone is able to make Potions by 9th level. Still, in the M&T the prices are very high. Cut them in half and we'll also assume you have a "lab" available to you, so don't worry about that cost. M&T pages 87 to 88.

Wands, staves, rods, and miscellaneous magic items cannot be made until 12th level for clerics and Druids. Including arms and armor. M&T page 88.

However wizards can make them at 9th level. M&T page 88. Which, BTW, means Winchesters are now 5d4+5, not 6d4+6.
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Aramis · Post by **Aramis** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:37 pm

Treebore wrote:
You didn't read the "Energy Drain" description right after the blood drain. Plus my M&T does not have that sentence you quoted. You must have the second printing. According to what I have the slam attack does 2 levels of loss, immeidately, with no save. W hen they do the bite they lose 1d4 HP's per round, Then, according to the Energy Drain paragraph, they alos lose one level per round on top of the blood damage. I'll find my M&T second printing and compare their wording..

Yes, it is confusing. I think they must have cleaned it up in the 2nd version. There is no mention in the second edition that the slam alone has any energy draining qualities

A succesful slam attack means the vampire can try for a bite/blood drain. Since that is the only way they can bite, and the energy drain is a bite (as in the sentence from the 2nd printing), the only way to do a level drain is while doing a blood drain, so only after a character fails a strength save.

Vampire hit? Yes---->Attempt blood drain--> character strength save? No---->Automatic energy drain+ 1d4 h.p. blood drain per round + do not feel like resisting

(My M&T has a TLG code of TLG 8011, so not sure what edition I am)

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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:50 pm

Treebore wrote:
Magic armor/items stacking!!!

1. Heh, I don't know if that question was ever resolved in your thread, Treebore and as it's 11 pages or so, I couldn't quite bring myself to read through it again, BUT . . .

For me I have always stated I use the 3E rules for this.

2. I saw this on page 87 bottom left - limit on magic items worn. Seems to clarify many of the questions on this.

Nope, not everything.

3. So for me, I can have a ring of protect +1 and an amulet of natural armor +2 for a combo AC bonus of +3, correct?

This particular combo does work.

Thanks.

Your welcome.

OK thanks, Treebore.

Now to get ridiculous (or not in my case), I believe you indicated somewheres that wizards can go +5 on magic items, correct?

And so to take this stacking discussion further, you mention 3E rules and I took a look and only saw a blurb on using common sense or somesuch.

So if there is a specific chart or rule can you tell me where it is and which book.

I have the SRD online and the 3.0 PH, DMG and MM as well as the 3.5 PH.

Back to the M&T, it says 2 rings may be used and bracers and a brooch and an amulet so

Can I then stack for a +20 on my AC!!!! ?????
[edit - actually it would probably be more like +17 or +18 as this would max out my gold and I probably wouldn't do it as I might need some other stuff, but just asking to clarify the rules. ]
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:08 pm

From the SRD:

COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS

Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.

More generally, two bonuses of the same type dont stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.

A bonus that isnt named stacks with any bonus.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that dont remove the recipients ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spells description.

Instantaneous Effects: Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:15 pm

Treebore wrote:
From the SRD:

What the heck???
You've just given an excellent example of everything that is wrong with 3.X!

The above explains nothing and if anything, raise tons of questions.

Anywho, upon further review of the 3.0 DMG, it confirms my example and is correct to stack that way. And the above could be done on top of a suit of armor, if I were another class.

Page 176 of the DMG seems to be the exact same as page 87 of the M&T (your SRD, if you will).

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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:04 am

Basically, if its called an "armor bonus" they cannot stack, except in the case of shields. They have to be from different sources. So, in 3E, Natural Armor is different than just "Armor Bonus". Cloaks and rings were called "Deflection bonus", then there is the "Dex bonus" and "luck bonus".

So in 3E, Bracers do not stack with "armor" because they were both the same kind of bonus. However, Rings/cloaks of Deflection would stack with Bracers or normal armor.

So in reality I should incorporate 3E into C&C for these "differences". However you are making it easier to just say, "Rings, Cloaks, and Bracers stack with each other but not with any other type of armor. Amulet of Natural Armor stacks with any type of armor."

So now I have to look through the various staves and see if they give AC bonus'. I'm pretty sure a couple of them do.

So you can buy, as a Wizard, up to +5 items of protection only, not weapons. Clerics do not get this benefit since they can Wear Polish Hussar Armor +3 for a base AC of 21.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:26 am

Thanks Tree. This is really going to be great. I'm having a blast reading and learning this stuff. Of course, this is going to be a riot for you to fun. A real test of your DM/CK skills, but I have no doubt you will handle it well!!
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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:27 am

OK, more questions and/or clarifications:

So we can make scrolls - but can we buy them as well?

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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:31 am

Question on group discussion - strategy and suggestions:

Can we discuss things amongst the group here in this thread. I don't wish to necessarily meta-prepare-for-the-game, but I wanted to get your opinion.

Also, what about private discussion between players for this type of discussion. Will you allow it?

For the most part, I don't really want to everything about all monsters, spells, strategies, etc. but mostly just want to be somewhat prepared as I would be if I had ever progressed to 9th level as a typical player.

Just some random thoughts . . .
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"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:34 am

Rhuvein wrote:
OK, more questions and/or clarifications:

So we can make scrolls - but can we buy them as well?

Yes, you can buy anything you can't make, or don't want to make.

Guess I should also tell you spells. I guess it will be best to say you have 10 spells of each levels 1, 2, and 3. 5 of each spell level after that.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:37 am

Treebore wrote:
Yes, you can buy anything you can't make, or don't want to make.

Guess I should also tell you spells. I guess it will be best to say you have 10 spells of each levels 1, 2, and 3. 5 of each spell level after that.

Almost forgot. Can I buy a higher than my level, spell, i.e. ~ can I buy a 6th or 7th level spell?
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:02 am

As a scroll? Yes, I would expect you too.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:15 am

Treebore wrote:
As a scroll? Yes, I would expect you too.

Very good. So that brings me back to an earlier question not addressed:

Quote:
Suppose I create a 7th lvl spell - 2 higher than my level. In the PH (page 48), it says I can do this, but need to do an INT check with a penalty of the spell lvl, i.e. 7. So the CB is 12 + the CL 7, so the challenge class (CC) is 19.

So I need to roll a 19 to succeed, then?

Incidentally, would I add my level (9) or just the attribute modifier of my INT (+3) ?

Thanks.

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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:36 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Very good. So that brings me back to an earlier question not addressed:

You cannot create a scroll of a spell your not able to cast (or have in your spell book in the case of Wizards and Illusionists), so you cannot even make such a scroll, you'll have to buy such scrolls at full price.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:29 pm

Treebore wrote:
You cannot create a scroll of a spell your not able to cast (or have in your spell book in the case of Wizards and Illusionists), so you cannot even make such a scroll, you'll have to buy such scrolls at full price.

Oops, sorry, I meant to edit that to "Suppose I buy a 7th lvl scroll . . ."

So what do I add to my roll to succeed - level or att mod?

Thanks.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:42 pm

OK, while waiting on the above question/answer, I'll throw out some more:

I can't seem to find/remember what the deal is on this -

"ranged touch attack" (see acid arrow spell). Does anyone know where the ranged touch attack is explained in the PH?

Thanks.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:02 pm

Polymorph question:

Page 86 under polymorph self/other -

The book says one can PM to twice caster's height (1st paragraph). But it also says the PM'ed caster acquires the physical and natural abilities of the new form including natural size, AC, natural weapon attack types, damage . . .etc.

Are these contradictions or am I not understanding.

So when I polymorph myself into a giraffe, am I a 12' or 18' high creature?

Maybe it means that I'm 12' high but can do the damage and run as fast as an 18' high giraffe??

Can I polymorph into a 12' gnome or prairie dog?

Thanks.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:08 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
OK, while waiting on the above question/answer, I'll throw out some more:

I can't seem to find/remember what the deal is on this -

"ranged touch attack" (see acid arrow spell). Does anyone know where the ranged touch attack is explained in the PH?

Thanks.

Yeah, but not off the top of my head. Range touch attack is hit the AC of base 10, plus DEX bonus, if any. Other magical protections may help this AC. Normal armor and natural armor do not help. Neither do Bracers of Armor.

So what helps "Touch AC" get higher? Cover and concealment are pretty much it.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:10 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
Polymorph question:

Page 86 under polymorph self/other -

The book says one can PM to twice caster's height (1st paragraph). But it also says the PM'ed caster acquires the physical and natural abilities of the new form including natural size, AC, natural weapon attack types, damage . . .etc.

Are these contradictions or am I not understanding.

So when I polymorph myself into a giraffe, am I a 12' or 18' high creature?

Maybe it means that I'm 12' high but can do the damage and run as fast as an 18' high giraffe??

Can I polymorph into a 12' gnome or prairie dog?

Thanks.

For simplicities sake I rule this as your limited to only creatures who's "normal" height is equal to, or less than, twice the height of the caster. So you won't be able to polymorph into a giraffe unless your 9 foot tall to begin with.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:20 pm

Treebore wrote:
Yeah, but not off the top of my head. Range touch attack is hit the AC of base 10, plus DEX bonus, if any. Other magical protections may help this AC. Normal armor and natural armor do not help. Neither do Bracers of Armor.

So what helps "Touch AC" get higher? Cover and concealment are pretty much it.

Thanks Tree. So it's basically a regular "touch attack" and the "ranged" part doesn't affect the outcome other than the usual ranged attack penalties than someone using a ranged weapon might incur depending on the situation.
[Edit - page 117 PH for anyone interested - and see acid arrow].
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:25 pm

Hi Treebore. Do "Clemson" and "Titania" want to add some comments or suggestions here on our upcoming game?? I'm sure we could use their input.

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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:27 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
Oops, sorry, I meant to edit that to "Suppose I buy a 7th lvl scroll . . ."

So what do I add to my roll to succeed - level or att mod?

Thanks.

Tree, you might have missed this question - any thoughts on this??

Thanks,

Rhu.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:24 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
Tree, you might have missed this question - any thoughts on this??

Thanks,

Rhu.

I don't have my books right now, but I only remember such a rule applying only to try casting from a scroll, and when it is a spell too high a level for you to cast.

So for making the scroll, I don't know right now. I would think there is no check needed for scribing scrolls. Since they are of a level you can cast.
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