Converting Wilderlands of High Fantasy to C&C?

Thulcondar · Post by **Thulcondar** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:36 am

Being the old-timer that I am, I was thrilled to see that Judge's Guild is back, and that they're re-released their Wilderlands of High Fantasy setting. (That's the campaign where they set such legendary modules as City-State of the Invincible Overlord).

Now, the thing is, the re-release has been geared for D&D 3.5 (ugh). I know zip about 3.5, so I'm wondering just how hard it would be to convert that material into something C&C-compatible?

Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:04 am

Thulcondar wrote:
I'm wondering just how hard it would be to convert that material into something C&C-compatible?

If only you had the original... *Sigh*

There is Grey Elf's Conversion Guidelines

"Conversion Guidelines for using any d20-based OGL source with Castles and Crusades"

Tons of stuff there... http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/
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Thulcondar · Post by **Thulcondar** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:26 am

Quote:
If only you had the original... *Sigh*

Yeah, unfortunately all my old JG stuff was lost ten or twelve moves ago.

Some of it seems to be up on eBay, but not all, and it looks like they've made some nice improvements in terms of integration.

Thanks for the D20 conversion link; doesn't look nearly as daunting as I had originally feared.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:44 am

Make sure you get the new CSIO, Caverns of Thracia, and Tegal Manor (which will be out in roughly the next 12 months). There is reason to believe JG themselves are actually going to be doing some stuff. Also make sure you go to the judgesguild website and get the cool free downloads there, this assuming like you haven't, since you also sound like you didn't/don't know that CSIO was also re-done. The Players Guide is also useful to players, especially those new to the setting. There is also some great goodies hidden on the NEcromancer messageboards in the JG forums. Mostly posts by mischler (sp?) and robertconsley.

Also, another good sword and sorcery d20 book to get is Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia, also done by Necromancer Games (the creative forces behind the updated JG material). It is not strongly set on history, it is very much an interpretation, plus it has a very sword and sorcery flavor to it. Most of it is story/content, but there will be a lot of 3E mechanics to translate to C&C, somthing that gets pretty easy once you start doing it.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:25 pm

The Wilderlands of High Fantasy box set is good, damn good IMO. However, there really is not that much "3.5" in the box set. Converting to C&C from the new Box Set is cake!!! The Box set is full of setting info, rather then a ton of v3.5 nuttiness.

Many of us who are fans of JG and C&C have either converted or have thought a great deal about it.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
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Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:28 pm

I can attest to it, having started a Wilderlands game yesterday. Even the races are easily ported, thanks to the advice of members of this and other lists (http://p105.ezboard.com/fnecromancergam ... =371.topic)

Thulcondar · Post by **Thulcondar** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:48 pm

Treebore wrote:
Also make sure you go to the judgesguild website and get the cool free downloads there, this assuming like you haven't, since you also sound like you didn't/don't know that CSIO was also re-done.

Yeah, I had seen the new City-State box; I couldn't see getting Wilderlands unless that was also re-done. I was also a big fan of City State of the World Emperor; I'll have to go back to the JG website and see if it's en route.

Thanks!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:16 pm

I have both City State and Wilderlands, the stats in both are neglegable, not a lot of wierd critters in either. I recomend just ignoring the main stats and going with the nearest C&C equivalent.

Plan B is to go to the Necro boards and find some C&C friendly folk to create a C&C creature converted PDF of both books.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:52 pm

The only one on the Necro boards that I am aware of who could do it is Erica (DnDChick) and she sounds like she is busy doing work for Green Ronin on True20 material.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:09 pm

Treebore wrote:
The only one on the Necro boards that I am aware of who could do it is Erica (DnDChick) and she sounds like she is busy doing work for Green Ronin on True20 material.

And Scott Greene, or Casey. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:51 pm

Oh, so I'm a no one, huh? I see. Fine.
Actually, I'm too busy on M&T II, and, I am really bored of monster conversions.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:53 pm

serleran wrote:
Oh, so I'm a no one, huh? I see. Fine.
Actually, I'm too busy on M&T II, and, I am really bored of monster conversions.

Humph! There's only one pouty primadona allowed on these boards and thats me!
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:28 pm

Agree with minimum conversions...though I'd keeep an eye out on the hit point totals for the critters. Unless you like having 55 hit point Bears to throw against your PCs (!?!?)

I mean, I'm a bastard CK and all, but....that's a bit much!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:28 pm

sieg wrote:
Agree with minimum conversions...though I'd keeep an eye out on the hit point totals for the critters. Unless you like having 55 hit point Bears to throw against your PCs (!?!?)

I mean, I'm a bastard CK and all, but....that's a bit much!

I dunno. Sounds quite reasonable to me. Bears are mean unstoppable bastards.
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Peter Bradley

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:29 pm

Yeah....but over twice the hp of an Ogre???

_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:45 pm

sieg wrote:
Yeah....but over twice the hp of an Ogre???

Sure. Why not?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:55 pm

Yeah, why shouldn't Ogres be afraid of bears?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:21 am

Treebore wrote:
Yeah, why shouldn't Ogres be afraid of bears?

Exactly. There are some bears out there that are huge and powerful. Id give the larger variety even money against an ogre any day.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:23 am

Even money, yes....but eating several with little to fear? C'mon.....

But hey, its your game. Just my O.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:28 am

Well, the largest brown bear is the kodiak, and I'd say it can probably smack down an ogre in rage, but, its not going to be normally aggressive, and its going to take quite a lot to bring it to, umm, bear. Anyway... lesser bears, are tough, and when they go all bloodlust psycho, they'd rip an ogre a new face... but I'd bet the average ogre could kill a bear, if only because the ogre, unlike the bear, is smart. Strength-wise, they're pretty comparable.

Besides... I'm of the camp that likes having bearhunts that don't require 7th level PCs!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:08 am

Smart people hunt bears with bows and nice throwing spears and don't engage the bear in hand to hand. Smart Ogres fight bears the same way. Bears don't know how to use range weapons, they can only hope to run you down and maul you. So smart hunters with long range weapons kill bear with no injury to self. Stupid hunters get killed by bear.

So High hit points won't get smart hunters killed, bad hunting techniques will. No matter what their level or HP. High HD bear is just fine, and makes a much more memorable encounter for a group of PC's who had to be careful and stay at range and shoot the bear many times with their bow before it went down. At least the big ones, including several that are now extinct in the world of Earth. Darn those smart hunters!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:33 am

Not true. Smart hunters realize ranged weapons are ineffective, since the bear runs the moment it is hit, up trees, in caves, and places where those weapons become useless, not because the bear "knows" what it is doing, but because it is instinctually afraid for its life. Instead, the smart hunter sets traps. These traps, often, mean the bear is not killed immediately, thus resulting in the need to pummel, or beat down the bear (though, I suppose someone could practice their archery on a trapped bear... but that's going to take a while, especially given the low damage potential of such weapons, generally) which, by default, becomes a "melee" of sorts, the bear struggling both to free itself, and the other to keep itself from being mauled and to finish the, hopefully already wounded and not just pissed off, cuddly. And then... there are the "real men," who will not resort to such wanton cowardness and engage their foe directly... much as a culture of brutes who rely on domination by sheer strength, would respond.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:35 am

The encounter I'm referring to is with 3 bears, and I still refuse to accept than an average bear can stand up to a dozen 4-6 hp normals with armor and weapons and win.

...but as I'm obviously in the minority here then just use whatever hp's you think are appropriate to your game.

Either way, good luck; its a good setting...
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:28 am

Your right, it won't. Because of the tactics and/or traps used, not the HP's.

Take the believed method of Mastadon hunting. That sucker had a lot of HP's, but apparently it was very afraid of fire and they scared it over cliffs at night, killing it with the fall. Or at least hurting or maiming it enough that it could be safely killed. Death or serious injury is believed to have been a very low occurance in these hunts, for the humanoids.

So having high HP's or low HP's doesn't really make the difference in how the fight goes, its who has the upper hand. When a bear catches a human unawares and unarmed they can kill them, or maim them very badly, with little or no harm to itself. Depending on the weapon the human has, the bear can still kill them with little harm to itself.

Take a game session I was in years ago. I was playing a second level archer type. I ran into a group of Basilisks. I ran and climbed up a really tall tree. Out of range of the Basilisk attack. I had a double quiver of 40 arrows. I killed myself 4 basilisks at 2nd level. All because of luck and superior tactics. Hp's only came in to play to find out how many arrows I had to use.

So HP's can be intimidating, especially if your in the creatures claws, but they are far from the determining factor in every scenario.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:05 pm

I'm just going to say this and leave the subject.

From the C&C Monsters & Treasures:

Brown (Grizzly)

NO. ENC: 1-6

SIZE: Large

HD: 6 (d8)

MOVE: 40 ft.

AC: 15

ATTACKS: 2 Claw (1d8), Bite (1d12)

SPECIAL: Hug

SAVES: P

INT: Animal

ALIGN: Neutral

TYPE: Animal

TREASURE: Nil

XP: 240+5

HD- 6d8. So, an "average" bear would have 24 hp, as an average roll on a d8 is "4".

This "average" encounter has 55, 50 and 45 hp respectively. The only one of these that would even fit into C&C stats is the 45 hp and that's rolling an 8 on HD rolls *5 times* in a row. Plus a "5" on the last die.

For an average roll of "4" per HD, that 55 hp bear would have to be about 14 HD (!?!?)

These hit points are excessive according to the C&C rules. Now, if you want to fudge your game, that's fine. Its your game and that's the beauty of C&C; its eminently house ruleable. But according to the rules this is excessive amounts of hp.

So, I stand by my opinion. Many disagree and that's cool. But such doesn't invalidate my statement.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:33 pm

I wasn't trying to invalidate your statement. In fact I said it was true. I'm just trying to point out that HP is not the sole determinng factor in how deadly a given encounter can be, there are many variables, such as traps and tactics, that can make the HP almost meaningless in terms of how threatening the encounter is or can be.

Now your also bringing how many HD the bear would have to have in order to have 55 HP, which is 1 4 HD with average rolls of 4, which would also up its BtH to 14, making the bear even deadlier, if it gets its claws and teeth on you. Same thing still applies, the circumstances can not only make the HP meaningless, it can also make the BtH.

So it just simply comes down to how the encounter plays out. If it is meant to play out like those "great hunts" we have read about, then your going to have an encounter where everyone is acting as a group, doing their best to maintain distance from the bear, as people take turns shooting the bear with arrows and jabbing it with the long spear, co-ordinating things to keep the bear confused and off balance, which in turn will keep everone from getting hurt or killed by the bear.

So the encounter is tense, with no one getting hurt if everything goes right, and the large amount of HP only added to how long this tense "encounter" took to play out until the bear dies. Now if anyone failed to do things just right, things get ugly, people get hurt or killed.

So HP does increase the threat level because the creature lives longer and therefore will have more opportunities for the hunters to make a mistake and allow for some mauling action to occur and maybe an escape.

Then there is the typically expected encounter. Party comes across huge bear in the woods. Party draws bows to shoot it at range. They don't shoot from far enough away and bear is able to charge in and start tearing PC apart. The rest of the party draws swords, daggers, maybe a spear, and go into hand to hand melee. Now the bears HP and high BtH is going to make this a very bloody and painful encounter. Very possibly a fatal one for some PC's.

In this type of encounter the PC's definitely better be collectively tougher than that bear, or the bear is going to win the day. What you have been saying about HP (and BtH) rules the day.

So HP can have anywhere from a tremendous effect to practically no effect, depending on how the scenarios actually play out due to circumstances such as traps and good, coordinated tactics, to lousy and uncoordinated tactics.

So I am not trying to argue with you or invalidate anything you have said, I'm just making sure we are all thinking of the variety of encounters that can occur and how they can play out, easily or painfully, irregardless of the HP and BtH being so high.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:19 pm

When I thought of using Wilderlands, the HP's was one aspect I planned to scale down to C&C levels. The HP given throughout are high compared to the C&C versions. They were scaled to fit the 3E game full of characters with higher HPs and multipe attacks. A single "legendary" beast of near max HP would be fine, but I would not use such a creature as a random encounter, and not in groups.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:24 pm

Ok, fair points. I haven't looked at it recently, but I seem to recall that the bear encounter wasn't a "hunt" type thing; it was a "setpiece" random encounter near a lake. The same lake where Diaglo/Lord Diaglus makes his appearance...
At any rate, I don't claim to have read the entire WHF box set, but as 3X has a high "hit point creep" I was concerned that all the encounters might be "powered up" a bit... At least compared to C&C anyway.

Also, its probably just my PoV but I like to think of monsters as....well, monsters. An Ogre should be a match for an average grizzly. Not an abnormally large one perhaps, and CERTAINLY not a prehistoric Cave Bear type, but normal animals shouldn't be mega-mondo killers. Well, maybe a shark is a good exception but you get the idea.

I'm just trying to warn the original poster that while the set *might* be useable for his campaign out of the box, the hp creep is one thing that I found (at least initially) something to be concerned about.

But even with that, I think the setting is top notch and were I not already innundated in my homebrew I'd probably run it. I haven't seen the necro CSIO yet but I'mj hoping for good things. Also, I suspect the Tegel Manor will be good....if for no other reason than Melan has a hand in it! ;D
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Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:33 pm

Even in C&C as is, a bear is still going to kick an ogre's ass more often than not. The # of HD gives larger bears a +6 to +8 to hit advantage over the ogre's +4. ^_^

The addition of 15 HP or so isnt going to make a fundamental amount of difference vs the plain law of averages.
Depends on how one views the ogre though? Magical creature or divergent humanoid species?

One person's monster is another persons neanderthal.
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:06 pm

Gideon,

See above averages. Its only a difference of a few hp if the bear maxes out. Otherwise as Tre. said you're looking at 12-14 HD.

A +2 BTH isn't massively over the top. I'd find the grizzly's d12 bite more of a concern than the BTH difference. Not to mention the 15 AC.

But whatever, as I said before. Its all in one's game. But I felt (and still feel) the poster needed to have this issue pointed out to him so he can decide whether or not its of concern to him.
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Converting Wilderlands of High Fantasy to C&C?

Converting Wilderlands of High Fantasy to C&C?

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Re: Converting Wilderlands of High Fantasy to C&C?