Monsters with class levels:

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:29 pm

This' carried over from the d20 conversion threads.

How do you guys handle this...if at all?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:33 pm

Best method I've seen, for each 'level' of a class a creature has, increase their # of HD by 1. This, of course, accompanying all the class abilities.

Another method might be a variation on that theme, and use the revised CZ background skills.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:55 pm

Usually, I don't bother. I modify the hit dice to the appropriate power-level and give the monster whatever special abilities it needs to fill its role. I think classes are there to guide character development and advancement. Monsters don't need rules for that, IMO.

I find this approach saves me a lot of time and trouble, and accomplishes the same end.

You can do the same thing with NPCs. (For example, a "0-level" tailor who has practiced knife-throwing and can hurl daggers like a 4th level fighter.) They don't need to follow the same rules that PCs do.

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:35 pm

Do you think when 'levelling up' a monster, you should keep the class hit dice?

IE: let's say I've got a horde of orcs, and I want to make two of them a little tougher. I'm going to make one a third level fighter (the leader) and one a 2nd level wizard (a shaman, or something). When levelling them up, should I give the fighter (Base Orc HD+3d10) HP and the wizard (Base Orc HD+2d4) HP?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:37 pm

I use class HD, monster abilities, the class ability for that level and adjust primes and XP accordingly. This works for lower level monsters like orcs and such with one HD. However higher monsters I haven't dealt with yet.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:13 pm

I use "Complete Humanoids" from 2E.
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zomben · Post by **zomben** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:53 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
I use class HD, monster abilities, the class ability for that level and adjust primes and XP accordingly. This works for lower level monsters like orcs and such with one HD. However higher monsters I haven't dealt with yet.

When you say 'adjust primes', do you mean just switch from "Physical" to "Mental" (IE: in the case of making an Orc wizard)? Or do it more granularly than that?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:57 pm

zomben wrote:
When you say 'adjust primes', do you mean just switch from "Physical" to "Mental" (IE: in the case of making an Orc wizard)? Or do it more granularly than that?

Exactly. Of course I'm also known to mixing up stats on monsters just for fun as well but that is the basic idea.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:26 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Usually, I don't bother. I modify the hit dice to the appropriate power-level and give the monster whatever special abilities it needs to fill its role. I think classes are there to guide character development and advancement. Monsters don't need rules for that, IMO.

Same here.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:43 am

zomben wrote:
When you say 'adjust primes', do you mean just switch from "Physical" to "Mental" (IE: in the case of making an Orc wizard)? Or do it more granularly than that?

I generally don't even adjust the prime.

Orc wizard? Still P prime.

1. It does nothing whatsoever to affect his magic using ability.

2. Makes him more exotic. Yeah he's a wizard, but he's still a brute of an orc that can snap your neck if he flies into a rage.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:05 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
I generally don't even adjust the prime.

Orc wizard? Still P prime.

1. It does nothing whatsoever to affect his magic using ability.

2. Makes him more exotic. Yeah he's a wizard, but he's still a brute of an orc that can snap your neck if he flies into a rage.

Or you could really beef him up and give him both P & M primes, his natural orc physical abilities and the mental ones he's developed in his mystical studies.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:40 am

I've considered that as well but I prefer the creature be flawed somehow. He is physically superior to most wizards, and while still capable mentally (he did learn the tenets of wizardry after all) his savage mind is still more vulnerable to mind altering magics and trickery.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:15 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
He is physically superior to most wizards, and while still capable mentally (he did learn the tenets of wizardry after all) his savage mind is still more vulnerable to mind altering magics and trickery.

I find that most orcs are vulnerable to a mind altering hammer-stroke, too...even if they are physical prime... :spoken in my 'gruff dwarf' voice:
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Griffin · Post by **Griffin** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:33 am

If it's a fighter... maybe add the hit die, maybe... if it's no more than three. Otherwise, I just make it human... same alignment, class, and abilities.

I mean, can an orc even spell prestidigitator???

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:45 am

Griffin wrote:
I mean, can an orc even spell prestidigitator???

I doubt it. In fact, I think the first orc to even say prestidigitator was brained by his comrades as they thought he was chanting an invocation at them.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:50 am

zomben wrote:
Do you think when 'levelling up' a monster, you should keep the class hit dice?

I generally do not keep the class hit dice.

For example of how I do it, in another post I had talked about giant wizards. A fire giant generally has 14d8HD.

If I wanted him to have wizard abilities I'd change his HD type to d6 and let him cast as a wizard, as long as it wasn't above the spell casting ability of a 14th level wizard. If I wanted him to be an 18th level wizard, I'd give him 18d6 HD.

Orcs? Same way. D6's as orcs are tough and I don't actually bother giving him "levels" anyway. I might mimic the abilities of a 3rd level class but I still dont "raise them levels".

Zulgyan · Post by **Zulgyan** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:46 pm

I just add more HD to the creature and give them any ability I find OK. Then calculate XP according to the matrix.

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:11 pm

Treebore wrote:
I use "Complete Humanoids" from 2E.

Can anyone tell me more about this book? I'm not familiar with it.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:17 pm

Here is an ad for it:
http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetai ... _GenreID_E
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:45 am

I think it's just as simple to pick a monster out of the M&T, and give it a certain # of class levels out of the PHB. Take an orc, and give him 5 levels of wizard. The orc's base abilities are described in the M&T, give him an additional 5d4 HP, plus all the goodness associated with the wizard class up to 5th level. XP would them be determined by using the chart on page 6 of the M&T. In this example, the orc now has 6 HD (base 120XP + 6HP per HP), plus Special I XP bonus of 60XP.]

Simple and it follows the rules of the C&C game exactly.

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:14 am

Omote wrote:
I think it's just as simple to pick a monster out of the M&T, and give it a certain # of class levels out of the PHB. Take an orc, and give him 5 levels of wizard. The orc's base abilities are described in the M&T, give him an additional 5d4 HP, plus all the goodness associated with the wizard class up to 5th level. XP would them be determined by using the chart on page 6 of the M&T. In this example, the orc now has 6 HD (base 120XP + 6HP per HP), plus Special I XP bonus of 60XP.]

Simple and it follows the rules of the C&C game exactly.

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My dislike for that method is a minor one.

You take a 1HD orc, then add 5 levels of wizard making him a 6HD creature.

How come I can't take the base stats of a human from M&T add a class level and start with a 2HD 1st level character?
I prefer replacing instead of adding when it comes to critters. Or, modifying. Just throwing on top doesn't make much sense to me.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:37 am

I hear what you're saying DD, and a part of that makes real good sense. However, as stated a thousand times by our own distinguised Serleran, "monsters" and PCs are not based on the same design model. The human "monster" in the M&T is designed to be stat'd for an encounter where class is not appropriate.

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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:39 am

Why not just stat the monster as a monster with class abilities and HD?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:34 am

Omote wrote:
I hear what you're saying DD, and a part of that makes real good sense. However, as stated a thousand times by our own distinguised Serleran, "monsters" and PCs are not based on the same design model.

I agree 100% and have stated it myself in one form or another many times on these forums. But like I said I prefer replacement or modifications more than I do just throwing "levels" on top of a monster.

My 5th level orc wizard? M&T stat format, 5d6HD, wizard abilities thrown in. I went for 6 because as a hulking brute orc with a physical prime, he's like a bit more durable than your average wiz.

It's more intuitive for me to build that way and seems less cumbersome. Or, as JG said, why not build it with 5d4 and give the class abilities. Thats more intuitive for me as well.

I prefer to replace racial HD with "class" HD when building a critter with a class. Just "adding to" the racial HD never did set well with me for sme reason.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:02 am

Also, you have to remember too, that with the SIEGE engine, by artificially inflating the HD of a creature you are affecting alot more than his HP's. You are increasing his saves, increasing the difficulty of his opponents resisting his spells, increasing his BtH, etc.

By making a 5th level orc wizard have 1d8 + 5d4 HD you are creating a 5th level wizard with the spell strength of a 6th level wizard when the party gets blasted by his spells.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:26 pm

Quote:
I agree 100% and have stated it myself in one form or another many times on these forums. But like I said I prefer replacement or modifications more than I do just throwing "levels" on top of a monster.

Funny. Sounds exactly like what I've been saying the entire time, yet, was argued against with vehemence. Its much easier to do "replacement" and makes much more sense, in some cases, anyway... oh well. Vindication!

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