Modifying AD&D Dragons

Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:18 am

I am running a Dragonlance campaign using C&C and the AD&D monster manuals (I dont have M&T and dont really see the point in getting it when I have the MM, FF, MMII and 2EMM already).

2E dragons are a bit tough IMO for the original Dragonlance game, I understand that M&T ones are even tougher but in my opinion the AD&D ones are a bit wimpy when using C&C so have been working on a cross between 1E & 2E versions.

Any thoughts or suggestions on improving AD&D dragons for C&C?

Here is what Ive been using so far.

Size (d8):

1-2: Small 3-7: Medium 8: Large

HD: HD listed in the MM are the base HD, modified as per the chart below.

I use HD type based on the size of creatures: S=D6, M=D8, L= D10.

HPs per HD: Use the chart below +1 hp per HD of the dragon (thus a 10 HD dragon would have +10 hps to the amount based on its age). A medium sized (7HD base) adult black dragon for instance would have 9(HD) x 7 (hp/HD) + 9 (for HD bonus) = 65 hps.

Damage Bonus: +1 hp per 2 HD (I use this for all monsters except humanoids and giants which I have a separate chart- helps keep monsters closer in damage dealing power to the PCs)

Breath Weapon: 3 times day.

Option 1: 1E version. Damage = (max ) dragons hit points

Option 2: 1D 6 per HD + 1 pt per HD (eg 6d6 + 6 for 6 HD dragon)

Option 3: 1D8 (+1/hd) dice of damage per HD of the dragon as above (6D8+6 for instance).

The bonus of the 2nd and 3rd options is that players cant metagame to figure out the HPs of a dragon the same. I used option 2 last night but thought that the dragon didn't do enough damage! I think a D8 would make PCs fear them more.

Age Categories

Very young, -4HD 3 hps/hd, AC -2

young: -2 hs, 4hps/hp, AC -1

sub-adult: 0HD mod, 5hps/hd, AC +0, SR: +0

young adult: +1HD, 6hps/HD, AC +1, SR +1

adult: +2HD, 7hps/HD, AC +2, SR +2

old: + HD, 8hps/HD, AC +3, SR +4

very old: +4hd, 9hps/hd, AC +4, SR +4

ancient +5 hd, 10hps/HD, AC +5, SR +5

I may also add 2 more categories to utilise a D12 for Hps but at this stage like the simplicity of the AD&D (8 ages) system for determining dragons hps etc.

So, anyone had experience modifying 1E (or other versions for that matter) dragons that could offer advice/insights?

Cheers

Craig

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:17 pm

I don't have any tips for converting dragons, but I would like to alert you to the fact that M&T has more in it than monsters. Additional topics include setting experience points, magic items, treasure tables, and land grants to PCs based on level. I'm sure others can rattle off stuff that I missed. M&T is sort of a condensed combination of the AD&D MMI and DMG. That said, I don't see any reason why you need to substitute the M&T monsters for your reliable AD&D beasties. MMI, FF, and MMII are fully compatible.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:33 pm

I would use 2E Dragons pretty much "as is", they were definitely deadly enough in their day. Still, I like how the M&T Dragon is even deadlier. See, I don't cut their BtH based on their HD, I keep it equal to their HD.

Very nasty. I have only used one dragon so far. A Black, outside the Palace of Shadows. The only reason they lived, or won, is because they had a scroll of stone to flesh. They successfully cast it, overcame the Dragons SR, and then I rolled a "1" for its save.
Strangely, much cheering ensued.

Its a beautiful statue, though.
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Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:05 pm

I'm sure M&T is handy but really can't see the point when I already have a DMG (AD&D & 2E) not to mention all the monster books I'll ever need. At some point I may get it but it is not necessary for me to run adventures in C&C with it (have been DMing C&C for the past 2+ yrs without it).

Would prefer not to use 2E dragons- they are probably too powerful for Dragonlance without increasing the character levels for the adventures, and also I have made a concious decision to use the 1E monster books rather than 2E- but in the case of dragons with a little tweaking.

Craig

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:35 pm

Yeah, its been years since I have done anything with DL. Just now I am only getting back into it as a player. MAybe Rigon or DangerDwarf will be able to give you some help.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:19 pm

Treebore wrote:
I would use 2E Dragons pretty much "as is", they were definitely deadly enough in their day. Still, I like how the M&T Dragon is even deadlier. See, I don't cut their BtH based on their HD, I keep it equal to their HD.

I still don't think the C&C dragon is deadly enough. I boost their hit dice to d20.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:24 pm

Traveller wrote:
I still don't think the C&C dragon is deadly enough. I boost their hit dice to d20.

Eeeew!! Your just mean!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:29 pm

I have no idea how to modify the dragons.

I'd just remove them, myself, and set the game right after the War of the Lance, and the othlorx are just going into hiding. Yeah. Easier that way, I think.

Oooh, I know, if I were to modify them, I'd whip out some Dragon Kings and templatize them all 4e style! YES!

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:33 am

serleran wrote:
I'd just remove them, myself, and set the game right after the War of the Lance, and the othlorx are just going into hiding. Yeah. Easier that way, I think.

Do not know much about Dragonlance, don't you?

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:40 am

Craig C wrote:
Would prefer not to use 2E dragons- they are probably too powerful for Dragonlance without increasing the character levels for the adventures, and also I have made a concious decision to use the 1E monster books rather than 2E- but in the case of dragons with a little tweaking.

Craig

I completely agree. 2E dragons are really overkill in a Dragonlance campaign.

Anyway, I recently played C&C with the DL modules, and exactly used the MM dragons "as is", and I did not see much of a difference with respect to how they performed vs. AD&D characters, which have the same HD as C&C ones (except for thieves). If played correctly, AD&D dragons can be really terrible.

However, a simple "trick" I used is to simply change the HD to d12. On average, this means adding 2 hit points for each hit dice to the MM figures.

This gives them slightly more hit points and breath weapon damage.

Another trick is to add half of the age category as a bonus to hit and to the damage. So, an ancient dragon would have +4 to hit and +4 to damage. Not overly inbalancing, and it helps differentiate the critters at different age levels.

Cheers,

Antonio

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:04 pm

Quote:
Do not know much about Dragonlance

Can't say I want to, either. The setting has never been inspiring to me. I do like a few things here and there (mostly draconians, some parts of Time of the Dragon, etc) but I really could care less about the "canon." Same holds true of all the other TSR settings too (even Ravenloft,) to be honest. I just don't like being told what exists in my game world... much less how things happened, to whom, why and whatever. I find that stuff boring, so I skip it.

I don't believe in "setting purity."

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:03 pm

serleran wrote:
Can't say I want to, either. The setting has never been inspiring to me. I do like a few things here and there (mostly draconians, some parts of Time of the Dragon, etc) but I really could care less about the "canon." Same holds true of all the other TSR settings too (even Ravenloft,) to be honest. I just don't like being told what exists in my game world... much less how things happened, to whom, why and whatever. I find that stuff boring, so I skip it.

I don't believe in "setting purity."

Fair enough

Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:31 pm

Thanks rabindranath72.

Initially I was going to use a D12 for dragons but then settled on a D10 same as other large creatures in my games, and I always use +1/2 HD damage bonus for all creatures to keep them more in line with the PCs.

did you use breath weapons as written then? Total HPs= damage?

Here are the stats for an ancient, huge red dragon using each of the four different systems Im considering.

A huge ancient red dragon: In all cases I am adding a damage bonus based on HD as that is what I do for all creatures in my C&C games.
BtB 11 HD, dam 1-8/1-8/3-30

1. BtB. 11 HD: 88 hps (Dam Bonus: +5 hps/HD)

2. BtB but D10= 110 hps (Dam Bonus: +5 hps dam per attack)

Using my sytsem of additional HD based on age

3. Huge (11 HD) + age bonus (+5) = 16 HD x 10hp/hd= 160hps (Dam:+8 dam per attack)

4. 11 HD (base) + size (2 HD) + 5 (age bonus)= 180hps (Dam:+9 hp dam per attack)

I think I am leaning towards option 2 or 3

Using Option 2 but a D12 for hps (and using max HPs/HD for an ancient dragon)= 11HD and 132 hps for a dragon so that may be an option too.

Decisions, decisions.

As for Dragonlance Serelan, I never cared for it either (hence geting rid of many of the things that annoy me in the world- tinker gnomes, no gold, gully dwarves and kender for a start!) but some of the adventure locations in the modules are very cool! The fun thing is that the players and DM (me) are getting into the spirit of the game and rolling with it- so far the railroad aspects have been downplayed but even so the players aren't minding a little railroading as it is a change of pace from our more open style game in my other campaign. So it has been a success so far.

Of course starting the game with a "woo-ooo, all aboard the Dragonlance Express" at the start of each session is helping to get them into the railroad mood!

BTW Thanks for the input guys more suggestions always welcome.

Craig

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:02 pm

I am not so sure C&C characters can handle this power creep. Keep in mind that all fighting classes in AD&D get multiple attacks, whereas in C&C only the fighter does. The hit points in both systems are practically the same, but fighters may receive higher HP bonuses due to constitution in AD&D. Even the damage they inflict is higher with high strength. Finally, weapons used vs. the dragons will usually inflict more damage in AD&D than in C&C.

I suggest that before improving the dragons, you first "try" how combat works with Kisanth. I too "improved" it, but it nearly resulted in a TPK; had it not been for the lucky shot of a player, the quest would have finished in Xak Tsaroth. Characters are supposed to be fighting dragons in Dragonlance (and perhaps even kill them if they are smart enough!), not escaping from them or risking a TPK every time they encounter a dragon!

Just my suggestions from "experience".

Cheers,

Antonio

Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:05 am

What I've done is reduce the age of the dragon- so Onyx is only a young adult black dragon- gives me room at the top end of things to make tougher dragons if I need them in future- so far I just match the HD/Hps to a similar amount to the DL dragon and go from there.

Used Onyx/Kisnath the other night (used D6 for breathe rather than HPs but was too wimpy so will got o a D8- am still a bit resistant to HPs=Damage), party almost halved his HPs in a single round of combat much to my surprise (but in my experience characters tend to do more damage in C&C than i remember in D&D, or at least our fighters seem to). Also, we allow 3/2 attacks for all classes that reach a base attack of +6 so all fighter classes can do more damage at higher levels.

I don't want a tPK with each encounter but do want dragons to be feared.

Maybe I will ponder option 2 some more...

Craig

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:38 am

Craig C wrote:
What I've done is reduce the age of the dragon- so Onyx is only a young adult black dragon- gives me room at the top end of things to make tougher dragons if I need them in future- so far I just match the HD/Hps to a similar amount to the DL dragon and go from there.

Used Onyx/Kisnath the other night (used D6 for breathe rather than HPs but was too wimpy so will got o a D8- am still a bit resistant to HPs=Damage), party almost halved his HPs in a single round of combat much to my surprise (but in my experience characters tend to do more damage in C&C than i remember in D&D, or at least our fighters seem to). Also, we allow 3/2 attacks for all classes that reach a base attack of +6 so all fighter classes can do more damage at higher levels.

I don't want a tPK with each encounter but do want dragons to be feared.

Maybe I will ponder option 2 some more...

Craig

Well, AD&D dragons should inflict hit points equal to their original total with each breath attack. For Kisanth, it would mean 64 hit points if the characters do not save, 32 if they save; which is nearly enough to kill half the heroes of the lance (IIRC their hit points).

But if you change how the dragons work in the MM, I expect to be some deviations. For example, 8d6 for breath for Kisanth would give on average 28 hit points; 8d8 would give 36 hit points. In both cases, about half of what she could inflict by the book, if the saves succeed!

If you compare the base damage figures, statistically C&C fighters cannot do more damage than their AD&D equivalents; perhaps you have a lucky group of players! But I would not rely too much on luck
Also, remember to play the dragons smartly. They make full use of their awe powers, they cast spells to prepare the field (from air!), and only as a last resort they get into melee. As written in DLA: dragons are power incarnate, and they know it.

Anyway, my suggestion is always to use the dragons as in MM. Let me know how things work out!

Cheers,

Antonio

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:11 pm

*salivates at the thought of a C&C category 12 red dragon dealing 680 points of damage on a party*

(34HD x 20hp per die. You do the math.)
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:45 pm

Traveller wrote:
*salivates at the thought of a C&C category 12 red dragon dealing 680 points of damage on a party*

(34HD x 20hp per die. You do the math.)

Shooting at the birds with a bazooka

Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:31 pm

Rabndranath did you find that increasing HD to d10 or d12 had much affect on the dragons in your game and if so which worked better?

Craig

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:49 pm

Dragon HD to d12 should only grant a +1-2 / HD different in HP, since the average only barely changes. Jumping from 10d10 for example is an average of 55... but it is 65 for d12 (basically its like adding the HD as a bonus). If you wanted to make dragons significantly more powerful you would use d20s because the average would then double.

However, C&C dragons already use d12s.

Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:47 am

In AD&D though Serlean a dragon's HP is based solely on its age catagory:

Adult 5hps/HD

Old 6hps/HD

Very old 7hps/HD

Ancient 8hps/HD

So an ancient dragon always has max hps! Since the damage from its breath weapon is based solely on its max HPs, how many HPs a dragon has it means increasing the HD to D10 for instance also affects the amount of damage that the dragon's beath wepon does- hence the dilemma's Ive been wrestling with.

Craig

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:49 am

Craig C wrote:
Rabndranath did you find that increasing HD to d10 or d12 had much affect on the dragons in your game and if so which worked better?

Craig

Basically, passing to d10 you increase the average breath damage of about the number of hit dice;passing to d12 about double the number of hit dice. So, the effect is not really catastrophic.

I found that using d12 (but leaving the other factors as is) was a good compromise between increasing the lethality of dragons and keeping them to a reasonable challenge. However, I would not go the route of AD&D 2nd edition or C&C dragons, at least for a Dragonlance game.

Cheers,

Antonio

Oh, just to be clear: since the age categories are built on a d8, passing to a d10 or d12 is only "virtual". That is, I simply increased the points assigned to each category by the difference in the means. So, the d10 would be equivalent to increasing by one point each catergory. A d12 would be equivalent to increasing by two.

This obviously also has an impact on calculations of saving throws for age categories larger than 4.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:55 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Shooting at the birds with a bazooka

When I said the C&C dragon isn't deadly enough, I meant it. Unless a player has a unique weapon, like Bard's black arrow or Dragonslayer, and a whole lot of luck, the dragon isn't going down. Period.
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Dangersaurus · Post by **Dangersaurus** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:34 am

Traveller wrote:
When I said the C&C dragon isn't deadly enough, I meant it. Unless a player has a unique weapon, like Bard's black arrow or Dragonslayer, and a whole lot of luck, the dragon isn't going down. Period.

I'm in the other school (I like several dragon encounters per campaign), as can be seen here:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... ames#48709

Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:28 am

Another interesting varient Dangersaursus, some more good ideas I might borrow there

Craig