StarSIEGE... once more into the breach

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:56 pm

Okay... I'm not sure if everyone saw it or not, but the Troll Lords have asked me to expand the original little StarSIEGE mini-game I put together into a full fledged book. As such, I have a lot of space to fill. Now I have quite a few ideas on what to do with this space, I thought I'd get some opinions from the community at large... after all, this game is as much for you guys as it is for anyone else.

Right now, I just have the rules and stuff, which are taking up a little more than 1/3 of the book... I'm probably going to go through them again and clean them up... and probably add an "example of play" section... beyond that, I have some ideas of things but nothing solid. Some stuff I'm musing on for the game:

Section for creating Aliens (this is tough, as it's hard to create a way to build radical racial abilities, but I'm musing hard on it now)

Section for creating your own "psychic" powers

A baseline setting bible (not a complete setting, more like an example of a setting for people who don't want to make one of their own)

Equipment lists

A How to Roleplay/GM section

Anyone else have suggestions? I'm willing to listen, but will eventually have to make calls based off of what I think I can put together and what the Troll Lords want to see in the book.

Thanks!

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:06 pm

Will it be "hard" SF, space opera, or flexible enough to handle all of them? It would be nice to see a system flexible enough to mix and match different SF genres, like DP9's Jovian Chronicles. I am quite partial to the "hard" SF mecha genre (e.g. Heinlein's Starship Troopers, Tomino's Mobile Suite Gundam)

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:12 pm

For me I always want equipment, equipment, equipment. Whether that is weapons, armor, vehicles, ships, medical stuff, cyber equipment, etc....

So guidleines for making up needed equipment that you don't create, how to determine "tech levels", etc...

Also, rules for cybernetics/cyborgs, and genetic enhancements, etc... are good areas to cover in sci fi. Plus what tech levels they will be available at.

Races I don't need so much, but that is because I have plenty of old school stuff to steal material from.

Why is tech level important in Sci-Fi? Because unlike fantasy, having teleportation, lasers, plasma, magnetic, or radio frequency guns is important, and these kinds of advancments are affected by time in a way acceptable to players. Unlike mages and their advancing in levels.

So such distinctions are easier to make, and for players to accept.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:17 pm

A section on stellar craft building for various genre tech levels. Ion to gravitic technology craft. Solar system capable vs intergalactic travel.

A section on building 'transport' and oddball equipment in general would be good too.

Cybernetics as Treebore suggested. Something on AI's for those who want to create/play one.

Equipment certainly.

Now.. a suggestion. All of the above 'technology' could be assigned a 'rating' and a suggestion noted for what sort of setting is appropriate. Star Wars technology being far more advanced than Star Trek.. and so forth. And both being much more advanced than Serenity.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:31 pm

I would suggest giving a look at GURPS space, Alternity, Cyberpunk Deep Space.

FTracer · Post by **FTracer** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:31 pm

Cool, I was wondering what more was coming from this preview.
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/crusad ... der10.html

I agree with Treebore, plus:

1.I'd like to have atleast a handful of aliens, it's just less to stat up later.

2. It would be nice if you had some standard psionics to use and rules to make more.

3. I'd like to see various ships and equipment with artwork. Some groups many want stats from a tramp freighter, starfighters or a star cruisers.

4. If your setting is like the old Alternity game, it'll be a must have for me.

I guess what I would really like to see are power suits. Something along the line of what Joey had in the Lost in Space remake to even something similar to Halo's Master Chief. I'm not talking mega transforming armor just something to take on those mass alien invasions/bug hunts that happen all the time.

Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:34 pm

Josh,

My advice would be to take a hard look at some of the previous sci-fi settings: Metamorphosis Alpha, Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Spelljammer, etc. Read them, study them and ultimately determine which of these worked best for you in tone and spirit (not necessarily rules). Then take a hard look at the SIEGE engine and explore how you can meld some of your favorite aspects with SIEGE and ultimately create a new sci-fi game that is a bold and refreshing take.

I would also read some excellent sci-fi authors whilst in the midst of designing such material. Isaac Asimov, Phillip d**k, Jack Vance, Robert Heinlien, Ray Bradbury. Watch some classic sci-fi films -- total immersion of the genre to spark your imagination and thus create some fantastic material!

Cheers,

--Jeff T.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:39 pm

Ghul wrote:
Phillip d**k

(stupid filters)

DlCK! DlCK! DlCK! His name is DlCK, dammit!
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:42 pm

Right now I have a robust equipment creation system that allows you to build anything from a club to a starship to a cyberarm using the same ruleset. Everything is balanced based off of it's Cost and Size and is entirely effects based, rather than tech-based... Basically the system lets you describe what the equipment DOES while you are responsible for the HOW it does it. I didn't really put together "tech level" rules as I didn't see the need. I guess I could go and re-tool the equipment system to factor in Tech to it... not sure if it's entirely necessary, though... since you can create whatever you want, you can tailor the equipment to the type of game you want to run.

Examples of some pieces of equipment follows:

Quote:
Knife
Durability: 3, Size: 4, Reliability: 0, Value: 1, Melee +4 (Close Range Only)

Cyberarm
Durability: 6, Size: 7, Reliability: 0, Value 10, Athletics +3, Defense +1, Interference 3, Mele+3 (Close Range Only), 2 Subsystems, 1 Cargo Hold

Hover Bike
Durability: 4, Size: 13, Reliability: 1, Value: 6, Hover, Drive +6, Move 3, Vehicular Scale, 0 Subsystems, 0 Cargo Holds

Durability are the number of hits the item can take before it's disabled, Size is a exponential scale based off of 10 being "Human" (so something that is Size 11 is twice human sized while 9 is 1/2 the size of a human). Reliability means that if that number or less is rolled when the item is used, the item fails/runs out of ammo/runs out of gas, etc (so the Hover Bike will fail on a roll of 1 on d20). Value is an exponential scale of the overall cost of the item (same scale as Size, but 10 is based off of a "Middle Class" income). The rest of the stuff are skill adders and special effects.

Right now, the system is designed to be a toolkit to cover jsut about any genre you want (you could even probably use it for fantasy). It's skill based rather than class-based, and uses the SIEGE Engine for all aspects of the game (including combat). In fact, you only need a d20 to run StarSIEGE.

The baseline setting I have in mind is a post intergalactic war setting that is somewhat cinematic but grounded (probably closer to DP9's Heavy Gear in theme or Battlestar Galactica)

FTracer · Post by **FTracer** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:50 pm

cheeplives wrote:
In fact, you only need a d20 to run StarSIEGE.

Will you still have a hitpoint system and different dice for weapons? A single d20 pretty much killed any interest in Mutants & Masterminds in my group.

Heavy Gear, as in small combat mecha? Sweet....

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:08 pm

Hit points are replaced by a Wound Track. You get 3 "free" wound boxes and then you have "Disabled", "Down", and "Out".

A successful attack does one box of damage, while some weapons may do two or more boxes. A character's Defense score is based off any Dodge skill and Armor and is added to the Challenge Base of the attacker. Attackers with the Combat Expertise Skill Bundle have a CB of 12, while everyone else has an 18. You add the weapon's attack rating to your own combat skill rating and see if you beat the Challenge Level.

Another thing is that if you have Combat Expertise as a Prime, you can choose to make a "Critical Strike" using the non=Prime value. Success means you automatically do damage to the "Special" wound boxes of "Disabled", "Down", and "Out" rather than the normal wound boxes.

I guess I can put a dial in letting players roll damage and putting hit points back in... I'll have to muse on that some.

GMs can add or subtract wound boxes to players for more or less lethal games. The game is chocked full of dials letting you scale it to what you want. There are scales for cybernetics allowing you to emulate Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0's Humanity system or turn it off and just go for maximum metal. Psionics can be dialed up and down as well according to the "rest time" required between uses.

I am really trying to 1) showcase that the SIEGE can be used successfully without special subsystems and 2) create a root toolkit allowing players to make the game they want. There is a lot of stuff that I've approximated and generalized (removed money instead for a Credit Score.. removed hard Movement rates for a score that determiens how many combat rounds it takes to change Range Increments) but still have dials in there for if you want to use money and actual movement distances.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:34 pm

That being said, if this is a root/toolkit for all settings, it might be a good idea to incorporate into the StarSEIGE book a small psionics system. Possibly a system where psionic powers can be created.

..............................................Omote

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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:26 am

Whoa, yes it does sound very interesting. Looking forward to more!
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baran_i_kanu · Post by **baran_i_kanu** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:56 am

nice!

got the original minigame you did and much look forward to this.

1. do we really need a how to roleplay section? will it be most likely experienced gamers? if so then a how to rp section seems like a waste of space.

2. a how to gm section on the other hand would be nice. especially with situational rules such as effect of space vacuum, diff grav worlds, etc.

3. and to join the crowd, mucho equipment.

looking forward to seeing what you got.

dave
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Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:43 am

Will be watching...
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:02 pm

Well, I am torn on the how to roleplay section... maybe Davis or Steve will pipe in here on that. Since they're wanting to release this as a full-fledged 120 page book, I was thinking that they want to be able to market it to a wider audience than just existing roleplayers. Doing so would mean that at least a rudimentary "how to roleplay" section is required. I really didn't expect it to be more than a couple of pages ending with an example of play, really.

As far as equipment goes, I'll try to add enough to spark some imaginations, but with the equipment design system GMs can make their own. Since equipment lists end up taking up a lot of space, I thought a design system get more milage, especially for a toolkit. Perhaps we can put together a PDF expansion of pieces of equipment after the book releases.

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:29 pm

Josh,

Long time no argue
I'm very interested in StarSIEGE, and I like the choices you've made for its construction, particularly the "dialing" aspect.

While I don't have much to add in terms of mechanics, I can offer a couple of things for the wish-list:

1) Ship-to-Ship combat a la SF: Knight Hawks. Some of my favorite games were played using Knight Hawks, and even though 120 pages isn't a lot of room, it'd be nice to see it addressed.

2) Pick a vision and stick with it. The presentation of the game needs to be cohesive, even if it only illustrates one way the system can be used. A toolkit is great, but a toolkit can also be overwhelming the first time it is read and/or played.

3) There's always the opportunity to use the Crusader or future expansions (like the C&C CKG) to really let the toolkit show what it can do. The first step, thematically, should just be your vision of a great Sci-Fi game.

4) Building on the other points, the core game should be based on a default setting. People need a setting to wrap their minds around things and kickstart the imagination. It gives GMs a place to start building adventures, rather than having to build a setting of their own.

5) Talk the guys into allowing more pages. 256 would allow you to present 128 as the default game/setting, and an entire 128 to display what the system can do. If the book costs $35 instead of $25, so be it - I guarantee it would sell more copies in this format instead of in two different books.

Just my two credits - nice work on the game and congrats on approval for the full version!

Casey/Fiff
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Tank · Post by **Tank** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:49 pm

Will it be class based and level based?

I'd like to see rules for elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, and mind-flayers in space.

Will there be rules for fantasy-style magic or just psionics?

Will it be compatible with C&C? I mean, can my C&C group enter a time warp and enter the StarSIEGE World? Or will I need to convert everyone?

Rules for both vehicle-to-vehicle and vehicle-to-man combat are a must.

Even with the wound system you mentioned above, I'd like to see optional rules for hit points.

Cybernetics is cool. Genetic engineering and Blade Runner-style androids would be cool too.

Any idea on who's doing the art?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:56 pm

It should not diverge from the normal C&C rules too greatly (that is, it should be 100% compatible with C&C) so that anyone can use it who has any idea how C&C works. I know I would not buy this if I would then have to modify everything to get my normal game to work with it... that means class and levels, or some kind of "conversion chart."

Also, there is a forum where this can be discussed more... its called Raven's Keep and has a special section on Collaborative Design, if you were interested.

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:31 pm

Sadly, as the game stands now and as the vision I have for it, it is not 100% compatible with C&C. I struggled with that, but I really feel it's important to showcase the SIEGE Engine rather than worry about compatibility. StarSIEGE is a skill based system. Each character gets two Skill Bundles which are their Primes (humans get three). The available Skill Bundles are:
Athletics

Awareness (perception type stuff)

Channeling (Psionics)

Combat Expertise (combat)

Environmental (ranger/druid type stuff)

Handling (piloting and such)

Lore (knowledge and bardic type stuff)

Mechanics (rogue type and repair)

Persuasion (charm and bluff type)

Spiritual (faith and connection to self)

Technology (use and design of high tech stuff)
You'll see there are a lot of overlaps in C&C class abilities, but it's not one for one and you can mix and match. I do have "Professions" in the game that are optional that will allow players to quickly generate Skill Bundles based off of their Profession. Characters can also buy "Specialties" which are individual skills and aren't limited to the specialties they buy. I also added a "Level" based dial for people who want less Skill based and more class based (you add your "Level" to any rolls that fall under your character's Profession).

I am also using a different attribute set that I feel is more in tune with Sci-Fi type games. They are split into two physical (Reflexes and Physique), two mental (Savvy and Knowledge), and two emotional (Confidence and Empathy). Furthermore, I have removed the 3d6 stats and all attributes are based off of their -3 to +3 value. I use a d20 to simulate a bell curve for generating the stats. THe other really large departure, as I mentioned earlier, is the removal of AC and hit points... Combat is now SIEGE based and hit points are now simplified to a weapon does a point of damage unless it's particularly powerful (has a special effect added to it)

I do want to figure out some way to do conversion, but converting class-based to skill-based is always hard. It is my intention to do it, though, so I will try my best.

Fiff... it has been a while, hasn't it? I'm not familiar with SF: Knight Hawks... care to PM me with some of the basic details of it and I'll see what I can do? I'd love to have more pages to work with, I just don't know if the TL will agree that we need that much space. As of right now, I was hoping to devote 40 pages or so to a setting... not a lot, but enough for a framework.

Tank... I do have a system for scaling combat between different size combatants. I do not plan on putting standard fantasy races in, but hope to have an "alien" creation system that would let you model them in SS. You could use any M&T monsters in the game with little change, though, since it's all based on the same general concept. Saves would work a little differently, since Primes are no longer tied to Attributes and are instead tied to skill bundles, but I think I can handle that in the conversion section.

johns · Post by **johns** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:17 pm

Sounds great. I especially like that it is skill based, in that it may give me some ideas on ways to modify C&C. The wound track bit sounds cool.

I came up with some rules to allow players in my C&C game to come up with weird "races" or to just play monsters without me having to come up with balanced racial info for said monster. Inspired by the mutation rules in Metamorphosis Alpha/Gamma World, I came up with a list of physical and mental "powers", and let the player choose 3. The list I came up with follows (and no, it's not really playtested yet).
Mental Powers

All mental powers that are derived from Jason Veys psionics rules follow those rules normally. The alien should be treated as a 1st level psionicist for the purpose of using the ability. If an alien takes a psionic mental power multiple times, he increases his effective level for using that power by 1. Thus, an alien that took metabolic control three times would use the power as a 3rd level psionicist.

Alien Mind: Creatures that try to read or control your mind must make an Intelligence save or be confused for 1 round.

Clairaudience: See psionics rules.

Clairvoyance: See psionics rules.

Dual-Mind: You are capable of engaging in two mental tasks at once, making an attribute check for each at -2. You cannot cast two spells or use two psionic powers simultaneously with this power. In addition, you also get to make two saving throws against mental effects. As long as one mind makes it save, you can ignore the effect.

Empathy: See psionics rules.

Heightened Mentality: Increase one of your mental attributes (Int, Wis, or Cha) by +1. This can be taken more than once, but no attribute can be increased beyond a score of 20.

Metabolic Control: See psionics rules.

Obfuscation: See psionics rules.

Psionically Gifted: You gain a +1 bonus to all psionic power checks.

Psychic Defense: See psionics rules.

Spell Resistance: You gain spell resistance 1. Each additional time you take this ability you increase your spell resistance by +1.

Telepathic Communication (Wisdom): See psionics rules.
Physical Powers

Chameleon: This is the ability to change the bodys colors (though not the color of items worn or carried) to match the environment. Generally it should give a bonus of +1 to +5 on hide checks.

Energy Resistance: You gain +4 resistance to one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). This can be power can taken more than once, but it applies to a different energy form each time you take it.

Extra Arms: When using two-weapon fighting, you may make two off-hand attacks instead of one. Alternatively, you may wield an additional shield in combat.

Extra Legs: You are a quadruped you gain a +4 bonus to avoid being knocked over. In addition, your carrying capacity is increased by 10%.

Heightened Physique: Increase one of your physical attributes (Str, Con, or Dex) by +1. This can be taken more than once, but no attribute can be increased beyond a score of 20.

Heightened Senses: You gain twilight vision, an enhanced sense of smell, and a +2 bonus to all listen checks.

Improved Speed: Your base land movement is increased by +5 ft. This can be taken more than once.

Natural Armor: You have scales, thick fur, or thick skin of some kind that give you a natural AC 11. Each additional time that you take this power you increase your natural armor by +1.

Natural Weapons: You either gain a bite, claw, gore, slam, slap, sting, talon, or tentacle attack that deals 1d4 damage. This attack can be used in addition to weapon attacks at no penalty. Each additional time you take this power you can either gain an additional attack form, or increase the damage of an existing attack form by one dice size.

Poison: You are poisonous either through bite, skin contact, or writhing snakes on your head. Opponents who are stricken must succeed at a Constitution save or suffer 1d6 points of poison damage.

Quills/Spikes: Your outer arms, back, head, legs, etc are covered in quills or spikes. You can inflict 1d4 points of bonus damage when grappling or grappled. Opponents that strike you without using weapons suffer this damage automatically.

Spider Climb: You can use spider climb, as the spell, at will.

Tentacles: Tentacles emerge from some portion of your body they may replace your arms or legs, or jut out from your chin. They grant you a slam attack that deals 1d4 damage, and grant you a +2 bonus to grappling attacks and climbing.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:23 pm

cheeplives wrote:
Sadly, as the game stands now and as the vision I have for it, it is not 100% compatible with C&C. I struggled with that, but I really feel it's important to showcase the SIEGE Engine rather than worry about compatibility.

I, for one, am not seeing a down side here. Let Star Siege stand on its own I say.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:24 pm

cheeplives wrote:
Well, I am torn on the how to roleplay section... maybe Davis or Steve will pipe in here on that. Since they're wanting to release this as a full-fledged 120 page book, I was thinking that they want to be able to market it to a wider audience than just existing roleplayers. Doing so would mean that at least a rudimentary "how to roleplay" section is required. I really didn't expect it to be more than a couple of pages ending with an example of play, really.

Thing is, how many pages do you have now? If you go over 120 pages in your writing, I can make it fit into a 128 page book no problem.

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johns · Post by **johns** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:51 pm

You know, another way you could handle racial abilities would be to turn them into "skill packages". For example, a Vulcan racial package would include neck pinches, mind melds, and something to do with logic. So, every character would have 3 packages, but only 1 of them could be a racial package. To do a Spock-like character you could choose the Vulcan, Lore, and Technology packages. A Chewbacca-like character would have Wookie, Handling and Mechanics as his skill packages. Just an idea.

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:50 pm

johns wrote:
You know, another way you could handle racial abilities would be to turn them into "skill packages". For example, a Vulcan racial package would include neck pinches, mind melds, and something to do with logic. So, every character would have 3 packages, but only 1 of them could be a racial package. To do a Spock-like character you could choose the Vulcan, Lore, and Technology packages. A Chewbacca-like character would have Wookie, Handling and Mechanics as his skill packages. Just an idea.

This is actually a pretty good idea, save for the fact that I still need to some how come up with a way of generating what the "Vulcan", "Wookie", or "Xern-rider" packages can do.

Definitely something to consider, though...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:37 pm

Actually, I don't see how you couldn't make this easily work with C&C. Your just making it a skill based Prime system rather than stat based. I already do it both ways in my C&C game. IE class skills are treated as Prime even when the relevant stat is not.
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johns · Post by **johns** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:15 pm

Quote:
... save for the fact that I still need to some how come up with a way of generating what the "Vulcan", "Wookie", or "Xern-rider" packages can do.

Yeah, as soon as I finished writing that, it occurred to me that what I had written was both obvious and not very helpful. I guess I had something like RISUS in mind when I wrote it.

Anyhow - I would still just come up with a collection of abilities (mostly inspired by the racial abilities in C&C to keep things fair) that the players or the game master can choose from to build an alien. Then provide three or four examples of alien races that hit on some sci-fi archetypes ... a big, rugged race (a' la Klingons or Wookies), a psionic race (a'la Vulcans), an insectoid race, etc. I would also let people know that there is no reason an alien can't simply be something that looks different from a human, but otherwise follows the rule of picking three skill packages. Certainly, the majority of aliens in modern Star Trek episodes are just humans with different color skin and/or crap attached to their heads.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:47 pm

You know your coolest things about sci-fi are the spaceships and robots. If I knew of a game that allowed you to design a range of different ships and robos I would jump on it.

Ships should allow for the starfighter types, to personal yachts and on to the big guys like the SDF-1 (as shown here: http://www.robotechmuseum.com/tradingcards/184f.jpg)

Robots should include the trooper drones that the heroes can thrash by the dozens, personal attendant droids, to "I replace the dragon" monster types (like this guy)

Another thing I don't like seeing in Sci-Fi RPGs is the "one blaster fits all" thing. Where blaster A is the same as Blaster B is the same as Laser pistol C with only the barest differences (like 5m of range). Or (better yet) have a system where a engineer type can create a blaster rifle with a wide range of capabilities. Here's an idea to differentiate laser blasters from each other. Have each color beam do something unique. Red burns, but blue freezes.

To me, the hardware doohickies make the sci-fi. Robos, blasters, and customizable starships (I want a sauna for long trips between distant planets). Jet-bikes wouldn't hurt either.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:58 pm

cheeplives wrote:
Primes are no longer tied to Attributes and are instead tied to skill bundles, but I think I can handle that in the conversion section.

Whoa, afraid I can't hang with that. Best of luck to you on this. It is pretty cool to see your work in-print.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:04 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Another thing I don't like seeing in Sci-Fi RPGs is the "one blaster fits all" thing. Where blaster A is the same as Blaster B is the same as Laser pistol C with only the barest differences (like 5m of range).

I agree there. I never liked how in a majority of sci-fi games that weapons are pretty generic and the same. I know its not an easy thing to fix, but some effort to differentiate makes things stand out.

Shadowrun did a fairly decent job of making the weapons seem different, even if they had similar stats. Some had certian options plugged in, some were more concealable, rates of fire, etc.

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