Is the fighter too weak? Evaluate my house rules, please?

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:47 pm

(Cross-posted to RPG.net)

From a casual reading of the fighter class, it seems like they're a tad weak/boring. They only get a couple 'kewl powerz' as they level, and seem sort of bland.

Now, maybe this is different in play. I've yet to play the game, but I'm starting a campaign in October, so I'm thinking a lot about it right now.

I've got a couple of ideas to tweak up the fighter a bit, but I don't want to inflict a lot of wierd rules mods. I just want to make a few simple tweaks to what's already there.

The idea is to keep the fighter a whirling combat machine, but not have to add a lot of rules like porting in "Cleave" feats from 3.x D&D (mostly, because I'm not planing on using miniatures in this game).

For what it's worth, when looking over the stuff below, keep in mind that I'll probably end the campaign by the time the PCs hit 10th level or so. That's about as high level as I'm ever comfortable running anyway.

And so, here's the plans so far:
Defense Bonus

Fighters are trained in defense as well as offense. To simulate this, a Fighter-classed character gets a bonus to his AC based on his level. See below:

1st Level +1

2nd Level +2

3rd Level +2

4th Level +3

5th Level +3

6th Level +4

7th Level +4

8th Level +5

9th Level +5

10th Level +6

11th Level +6

12th Level +7

13th Level +7

14th Level +8

15th Level +8

16th Level +9

17th Level +9

18th Level +10

19th Level +10

20th Level +11
Arsenal

Due to constant practice and experimentation with a variety of weapons, a Fighter can choose a new "Favored Weapon" every five levels. So, at 1st, 5th, 10th, etc. levels, the Fighter adds may choose a new weapon to get the Favored bonus. Note these are cumulative. A 5th level fighter has two Favored weapons. A 10th Level Fighter has three, etc.
Combat Marauder

As the Fighter levels up, he can use the Combat Marauder ability against creatures with higher hit dice. This will scale with the increase every four levels as follows:

# of Attacks Against:

Character Level 1 HD 2 HD 3 HD 4 HD 5 HD

4th 2 1 1 1 1

8th 3 2 1 1 1

12th 4 3 2 1 1

16th 5 4 3 2 1

20th 6 5 4 3 2

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:09 pm

PARRY: Any class can go on pure defensive mode and take half their level and add it to their AC. Fighters can add half their level +1.

Been using that system for 20 odd years

Much simpler.
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zomben · Post by **zomben** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:15 pm

That's a good fix, and basically models the math on my chart. However, I really wanted this to be a special ability just for Fighters. Not sure if I want to give it to everyone, though I've no real good reason for that.

It's just based on my own memory of trainign in Fencing and Chinese Martial arts (specifically a spear, staff, and broadsword form) and realizing that I was training defensively as much as offensively.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:24 pm

zomben wrote:
That's a good fix, and basically models the math on my chart. However, I really wanted this to be a special ability just for Fighters. Not sure if I want to give it to everyone, though I've no real good reason for that.

It's just based on my own memory of trainign in Fencing and Chinese Martial arts (specifically a spear, staff, and broadsword form) and realizing that I was training defensively as much as offensively.

Well, it doesn't have equal value to all classes. Its mostly a stop gap for less combat oriented classes.

Try this addition I just thought off. Those with a prime in dex can double their effective dex mod.
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:31 pm

I have tweaked fighters in my campaign too.

Most notably, if you're looking for more defense, give them Combat Sense, as per the Barbarian. It makes sense that as melee masters they'd be tough to outflank.

I like giving a defensive too, but i have a generic system for everyone (along with lower hit points and armor as damage reduction). Fighters are the best at it, but like Serl's Parry, it's not a significant difference.

-Fizz

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:22 am

I like the 2E way:

Specialized weapon gains a 3/2 attack rate, +1 Hit/+2 Damage

At 7th, 2/1 with Specialized Weapons, everything else 3/2

At 13th 5/2 with Specialized Weapons, everything else 2/1

All "warriors" can the 7th and 13th level attack progression.

Only fighters can specialize.

You can also use the ROF and Specialized ROF from 2E for ranged weapons.
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baran_i_kanu · Post by **baran_i_kanu** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:38 am

ah, the weak fighter.

a worthy discussion.

here's a thread from dragonsfoot about this very subject awhile back.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... ing+styles

it has Akrasia's fighting styles, an alternate fighter class by JRRNeiklot, my version of Akrasia's fighting styles copied and tinkered with ( i did finally go letting only a few specific classes going with these styles), and Maliki's fighting styles.

a search of "fighting styles" and "combat dominance" also brings up threads on tweaking combat dominance, new fighter classes, etc.

love this subject as i loves me some fighters.

dave
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:42 pm

Interesting work - personally, I'd slow down the AC bonus a bit. I like the Arsenal ability quite a bit.

I haven't had too much trouble in my campaign with the fighter lagging behind - the only tweak I made was to have the Combat Dominance ability apply to all 1HD monsters, period. Nothing like a dwarven fighter with their favored weapon going up against some orcs or goblins - the heads do roll.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:49 pm

Yeah, I think the fighter only appears to be lacking.

In my C&C DL game (which made it to level 20) the fighter was pretty ass-kicking. Now, I do use a system like the Secondary Skills out of the CZ download, adding fighting styles to the secondary skill list. But none of them were a big change. The fighter primarily had secondary skills to offset the two weapon fighting penalty.

Even as is, she kicked serious ass.

But, the only complaint in the group was against the wizard. He was insane powerful at that high of a level. The rest of the party jokingly referred to themselves as his henchmen.

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:13 pm

Great suggestions! I'll revisit and post a revised version soon.

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:05 pm

The fighter, by the numbers, isn't lacking. It's just a little too "vanilla" in appearance when compared to classes that get all sorts of flashy abilities.

I've created a number of alternatives that the player can choose to replace weapon specialization. They'll be in Crusader 9 or 10.

My philosophy is that the fighter's greatest strength is raw combat ability and proficiency in all weapons. Fighters that give up specialization in order to carry diverse weapons often find that they always have the right tool for the job.

Of course, if all weapons damage everything the same way, there's no need for multiple choices. That's why I use a simpler weapon vs. armor type table to make certain situations harder for players that choose specialization just to get phat bonusez.
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zomben · Post by **zomben** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:19 pm

I just finished revising my ideas based on feedback here, and at RPG.net
Defense

I'm going to scale back the "Defense". Probably give the Fighter a +1 to his AC at every five levels starting at level 1. So:

1st level -- +1

5th level -- +2

10th level -- +3

15th level -- +4

20th level -- +5

Etc.
Full Assault

Someone on RPG.net mentioned the "Smash" ability which Fighters in RC D&D got at 7th level. I like it, and am tweaking it as follows:

Starting at 7th Level, the Fighter may take -5 to both Hit, and to his AC (for the entire round) and in return gets to add his entire STR score to the rolled damage (instead of just the STR bonus). No matter how many bonus attacks the character has from using other abilities, he can only make one Full Assault attack per turn, for every 7 levels. So, at 7th level he can make one such attack, at 14th level, he can make two.

Finally, I'm going to drop my modifications to the Combat Dominance (I accidentally called it Combat Marauder). Too fiddly.

So here's what I've got:

Defense Bonus (as altered above)

Arsenal (from original post)

Full Assault

How's that look?

ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:26 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
The fighter, by the numbers, isn't lacking. It's just a little too "vanilla" in appearance when compared to classes that get all sorts of flashy abilities.

Yup, this is why my players don't pick fighter, even if it would be good for them.

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:29 pm

That's the common complaint among my guys as well. Not that he's not 'powerful' enough, just that he's boring (seemingly). So, I'm trying to make him just a bit more interesting. By breaking up the 'bonuses' in the things I'm giving him above, it gives the fighter something to look forward to (game-wise) every couple of levels or so.

baran_i_kanu · Post by **baran_i_kanu** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:10 pm

zomben wrote:
Full Assault

Someone on RPG.net mentioned the "Smash" ability which Fighters in RC D&D got at 7th level. I like it, and am tweaking it as follows:

Starting at 7th Level, the Fighter may take -5 to both Hit, and to his AC (for the entire round) and in return gets to add his entire STR score to the rolled damage (instead of just the STR bonus). No matter how many bonus attacks the character has from using other abilities, he can only make one Full Assault attack per turn, for every 7 levels. So, at 7th level he can make one such attack, at 14th level, he can make two.

oooooooooooooh. if forgot about Smash from RC.

that looks pretty good, it'll give him a bit of a kick at higher levels when he'll need it.

but only once per turn at 7th? dunno.

i wonder if i'd just make it a straight up once/three rounds and leave it at that.

but that might be too powerful.

still, a very interesting idea to add this ability, especially at the higher levels.

dave
_________________
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I've stepped into the black

I say hey now

I wont be coming back

I say hey now

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:36 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, I think the fighter only appears to be lacking.

In my C&C DL game (which made it to level 20) the fighter was pretty ass-kicking.

Wait till you see high level fighters in the CKG... let the ass kicking begin!
.........................................Omote

FPQ
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:43 pm

Omote wrote:
Wait till you see high level fighters in the CKG... let the ass kicking begin!
.........................................Omote

FPQ

Dammit! And I've been deliberately staying away from what might be in the CKG to keep me from overly pining for its release. Damn you Omote! Damn youuuuuu!

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:33 pm

Is there a disctinction between "Rounds" and "Turns" in C&C? Because what I meant was that he could only use the ability once per combat round, per 7 levels, no matter how many 'bonus' attacks he got from other abilities (like Combat Dominance at high level).

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:33 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Dammit! And I've been deliberately staying away from what might be in the CKG to keep me from overly pining for its release. Damn you Omote! Damn youuuuuu!

Should be 90 days or less. Unless the Trolls fail to live up to their own expectations.
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zomben · Post by **zomben** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:35 pm

Cool, but as my game is going to focus more on the low-level stuff, 'High Level' powers don't do much for me. I plan to end it around 10th level.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:13 pm

zomben wrote:
Cool, but as my game is going to focus more on the low-level stuff, 'High Level' powers don't do much for me. I plan to end it around 10th level.

Yeah, you say that now...
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zomben · Post by **zomben** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:20 pm

Heh! Well, we'll see how it goes. Honestly, I've always felt (in my 1st/2nd Ed AD&D days) that at about 10th level, the PCs were about done, and it was time to try something else. But who knows? How roughly do levels scale to AD&D vs. 3.x?

I always felt that a tenth level 3.x character was about equal to a 20th level 1st/2nd Ed. AD&D guy. Maybe that's just me.

imweasel · Post by **imweasel** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:09 pm

Like all things, fighters 'being to weak' is relative to circumstance and level.

Are they going to be as powerful as a wizard? No.

But as for melee classes, they are not 'to weak'.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:30 pm

zomben wrote:
Is there a disctinction between "Rounds" and "Turns" in C&C? Because what I meant was that he could only use the ability once per combat round, per 7 levels, no matter how many 'bonus' attacks he got from other abilities (like Combat Dominance at high level).

Turn in C&c is equla to one minute, which is equal to 6 rounds, which are 10 seconds. Hence the D10 inititiative and no DEX bonus to initiative.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:31 am

zomben wrote:
It's just based on my own memory of trainign in Fencing and Chinese Martial arts (specifically a spear, staff, and broadsword form) and realizing that I was training defensively as much as offensively.

A great deal more so, I would imagine - but that's represented in-game by the character's Hit Points.

kelro · Post by **kelro** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:41 pm

In our current game where everyone is 5th level at the moment, I would definitely *not* say the fighters are weak. They are really the backbone of the party when it comes time to fight it out.

The wizard does have his moments where he shines in battle, but there are many encounters where the wizard's spells are not appropriate for the situation, or he has simply already spent his arsenal (used his most effective combat spells for the day).

In contrast, the two fighters are constantly hitting (high to hit bonus), dishing out significant damage a hit (> 10 points), have a high AC (> 20) and high HP. They may not get a cool little ability every level, but the basics are solid (highest BTH, good hit dice, best selection of weapons and armor).

zomben · Post by **zomben** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:22 pm

Interesting that I keep hearing that same sort of comment.

So, for those of you who don't think the fighters are 'too weak' would you say that their ability to learn different types of weapons and armor makes up for them not getting 'kewl powerz' every few levels?

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:49 pm

From my point of view, I broke it down by the numbers. When most combat variables are taken into account, the fighter is vastly superior in most, if not all, combat situations, magical interference excepted.

The paladin, ranger, and knight are close, but have restrictions that limit how they are played.

I don't want to get into a dissection of the actual math involved, because that would be a rehash of all of the arguments that I made during the design phase of C&C. I actually argued for a slightly different fighter than was published. However, even the published version is a better combatant than any other class in a broader variety of situations.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:57 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
I actually argued for a slightly different fighter than was published.

*snickers* Him and me both.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:35 pm

I'm playing a fighter right now. It helps that I have an 18 STR, but the +! to hit from being first level, and the plus 1 to hit and damage from specialization have also been a very noticeable advantage.

So starting out with a +2 to hit and +1 to damage is definitely a big advantage compared to everyone else. Whether or not I'll feel that way around 5th level I'll hopefully live long enough to find out.
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Is the fighter too weak? Evaluate my house rules, please?

Is the fighter too weak? Evaluate my house rules, please?

Re: Is the fighter too weak? Evaluate my house rules, please