Deities

[Thulcondar]

I was wondering if there was a standard format for writing up deity descriptions in C&C. I'm thinking of something akin to what was in Deities & Demigods that I could use.

Thulcondar
http://www.goldenfuture.net/Thulcondar

[serleran]

I wrote one up, but it is not "official."

serleran on another thread wrote:
May I suggest a format for writing up the deities / faiths?

The cleric class, as presented in the Players Handbook is universal, generic, and oft-times, seen as a healing tank, having both attack abilities and restorative capacity. To many, in a world full of deities, each with divergent goals and worshippers, the fact that all clerics are equal is unfathomable. The desire to have uniqueness, a better-rounded pantheon, is necessary for a living campaign, one in which the setting itself has a sense of wonder, and realism. That is the goal of this document.

Unless specified otherwise, all clerics, regardless of faith, share the same abilities, as presented in the Players Handbook. They advance at the same rate, gain the same spell selection, and utilize the same armor and weapon proficiencies. However, every deity which follows alters some aspect of the cleric class, in some cases, somewhat dramatically; if this is the case, and a new progression or methodology is required, it is noted. In general, clerics of the same race will also share similarities, as do their deities.

When creating a cleric character, the player selects race as normal, and then assigns Primes, following the guidelines as given in the rules; however, all clerics must have Wisdom as a class Prime, so this is an assumed given, and is not mentioned in the detailed descriptions. A characters race and the selection of additional Primes, affects which deity is available. Note, this is not to say that a character that does not match the required Primes cannot worship the deity, but instead, implies that the character is not granted the special privileges of having met the requirements. In most cases, more than one possibility exists, allowing the player to select a deity befitting the character concept. Additionally, all such permutations have a descriptive name, such as Hammerhand, which is meant only to serve as a means to identify each of the variations in shorter form; Castle Keepers are encouraged to alter and add to meet their needs.

All faiths are presented in the following format, arranged by race; within each race, each is listed in order of attribute combination, so that Strength precedes Charisma:

Name: This is the name of the faith.

Primes: The Primes required to be considered a devoted, and blessed, follower, gaining all relevant benefits, and hindrances.

Alignment: Represents the alignment of the deity, and the most common among followers; variation is allowed, as noted.

Weapons: Weapons allowed to the cleric, all of which are considered proficient.

Armor: Armor allowed to the cleric; this does not impact a clerics spellcasting abilities unless otherwise indicated.

Modifications: Any change to abilities, such as removal, or granting, as well as experience adjustment is presented.

Symbol: A description of the holy symbol, and its construction, used by the faith.

Vestment: The religious clothing worn by the clergy.

Rites: Lists and describes the rites and rituals a cleric is expected, and allowed, to perform; failure has repercussions.

Temples: Details where, and how, the religious structures are built; also, describes the general feel of such structures.

Roleplaying Notes: Ideas and guidelines for roleplaying a member of the faith.

Should help you. When I get to the Gods and Demons book, I'll have it more refined and specific.

[ZeornWarlock]

serleran wrote:
I wrote one up, but it is not "official."


Should help you. When I get to the Gods and Demons book, I'll have it more refined and specific.

Any chance you'll add Orcus to that list?

ZW.

[Traveller]

Unofficially, I'm sure serleran could do Orcus. Officially, the description of Orcus that we all know is not open game content to the best of my knowledge, and therefore cannot be used in other games. In fact, none of the descriptions of the named demon and devil princes from the Book of Vile Darkness et al are open game content. If you go the route of using Scott Greene's Creature Catalog on Enworld, do realize that while you can use the name and the stats of the creature, you cannot use the description as written.

Now, if you want to create your own versions of the demon and devil princes, you can, as long as they have a public domain name and you don't infringe on Hasbro copyrights. In fact, I have a version of Demogorgon somewhere in my files that keeps the flavor of the two-headed baboon version, but with changes made to appease Hasborg lawyers. Since Demogorgon is a name in the public domain (being a Christian invention referring to a god of the underworld), it can be used.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[csperkins1970]

Traveller wrote:
Since Demogorgon is a name in the public domain (being a Christian invention referring to a god of the underworld), it can be used.

The thing is, Orcus is a Roman death god... and, as such, should also be in the public domain!

From Wikipedia:
In Roman mythology, Orcus was a god of the underworld, punisher of broken oaths, more equivalent to Pluto than to the Greek Hades, and later identified with Dis Pater. He was portrayed in paintings in Etruscan tombs as a hairy, bearded giant. A temple to Orcus may have existed on the Palatine Hill in Rome.

[Thulcondar]

csperkins1970 wrote:
The thing is, Orcus is a Roman death god... and, as such, should also be in the public domain!

Yeah, but you'd probably be running into trouble if your Orcus had a special wand, and the head and legs of a goat...

Thulcondar
http://www.goldenfuture.net/Thulcondar

[Coleston the Cavalier]

serleran wrote:
I wrote one up, but it is not "official."


Should help you. When I get to the Gods and Demons book, I'll have it more refined and specific.

I really like this Serleran. It organizes and provides all the things necessary for running a religious organization (and an individual cleric) of a particular faith. Although much of the details will reflect the god worshiped, the foucs is on the roleplaying aspects instead of the god itself. In addition, each faith can have its own a customized "cleric class" to better reflect their ethos. Thanks a bunch!
_________________


John Adams

[Philotomy Jurament]

Thulcondar wrote:
Yeah, but you'd probably be running into trouble if your Orcus had a special wand, and the head and legs of a goat...

How does Necromancer Games get away with it, then? In fact, I think they published an OGL version of Orcus in their Tome of Horrors. (Actually there's an OGL version of Orcus on the Creature Catalog site, covered by this copy of the OGL license.

Frankly, I don't really understand how that works, either. If anyone does, please enlighten me.

[serleran]

I'm not a lawyer, but what I understand it to be involves artistic representation, and visuals. Much like a picture can be copyrighted, the depiction of a particular entity can be copyrighted, provided such depiction is not public domain, or otherwise made publically available. For example: Cherubs are well-known art features, and the imagery associated with them is public domain (any Cupid-like angel, for example...) but if you took that depiction, modified it enough, and made it unique, then it could be considered Product Identity, and affected by copyright/trademark law.

Orcus and many of the demons from AD&D (there are some exceptions) are mostly drawn from real-world mythohistory or religious iconography. However, none of them matches exactly any single public domain resource (some draw elements from many sources, but I believe the peculiar and particular manner is considered unique), making them unable to be identically duplicated.

Anyway... the name Orcus can be used, as can Demogorgon. Baphomet, Pazuzu, Asmodeus, and most the rest as well are "free-game" (all such names are derived from various ancient "cults," except Baphomet which stems from the Knights Templar) as far as creating versions of them. But... that is exactly what they must be: versions.

Anyway, take it what it is... an understanding. I'm sure its much more involved.

[Traveller]

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
How does Necromancer Games get away with it, then? In fact, I think they published an OGL version of Orcus in their Tome of Horrors. (Actually there's an OGL version of Orcus on the Creature Catalog site, covered by this copy of the OGL license.

Frankly, I don't really understand how that works, either. If anyone does, please enlighten me.

Boy, isn't it fortunate that I had spoken to Scott Greene about this more than a year ago. I think I still have the correspondence saved in my email, but in short, the names, statistics, and special abilities of the creatures in the Creature Catalog, the Tome of Horrors, and the Tome of Horrors II can be used, but you cannot use the physical descriptions of those creatures, as the physical description is product identity.

So, in short, Orcus' name, his stat block, and his powers are all available for you to use. But you cannot have your rendition of Orcus appear like any previous version of Orcus.

Also, the Orcus writeup that appears in the Creature Catalog may not necessarily correspond with the version in the Tome of Horrors. If I recall, according to Scott, this was deliberate.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Bowbe]

Thulcondar wrote:
How does Necromancer Games get away with it, then? In fact, I think they published an OGL version of Orcus in their Tome of Horrors. (Actually there's an OGL version of Orcus on the Creature Catalog site, covered by this copy of the OGL license.

Frankly, I don't really understand how that works, either. If anyone does, please enlighten me.

It's called express written permission. Some people know this and some do not. Clark Peterson was one of the first people to jump onboard with the D20/Open Gaming License, one of the first people to read and interpret it and one of the first to begin codifying and assigning value to it beyond the written document that WOTC granted.

All this through direct correspondence with Ryan Dancy to make sure everything was perfectly legal and legit. Mack Golden was another who jumped in early on that (being the good troll that he is). A lot of how things have been worded in end user licenses and the "OGL/D20" page is based largely on that initial leg-work. There were a lot of companies preparing to do d20 stuff in that time but not many of them had a strong grasp of how to "do" a legal page frankly because most of them were gamers and not lawyers. Now everyone does them almost exactly the same way.

Remember folks, guys like Monte Cook and Chris Pramas ect. were still active employees of WOTC at the time. It was like a year or so after 3.0 release that they turned full attention to their own fledgling companies. WOTC at that time was very interested in allowing 3rd party publishers their shot to get adventures and the like out, worked closely with them and in many ways still continues to do so.

In other words, It doesn't hurt to play ball and acquiesce to their wishes (such as not copying their trade dress). It does hurt to ignore their rules however, to the tune of having entire print runs destroyed for lack of reading the fine print.

As for Demon Lords and Princes of Hell or other monsters in TOH 1... again, express written permission granted by WOTC as well as original rewrites or imaginings of their physical descriptions ect. ect. Without the express written permission there would have been no TOH.

Think of it in the way our troll friends worked out the rules and descriptions of things in the C&C books. They COULD have easily copied directly from OGL sources but chose to re-write and re-imagine everything in their own way and style in their own words.

Anyhow, that my friends is pretty much "how" Necromancer "Got Away With It". In essence Necro didn't get away with anything, they asked and received permission which often enough WOTC is more than willing to grant.

Case

[Philotomy Jurament]

Bowbe wrote:
Anyhow, that my friends is pretty much "how" Necromancer "Got Away With It". In essence Necro didn't get away with anything, they asked and received permission which often enough WOTC is more than willing to grant.

I didn't intend to imply that Necromancer Games was doing anything sneaky or underhanded, so if that's how my question came across, please consider this a clarification for the record.

Thank you for the information; that makes things much clearer. Now that Orcus, et al. have been released in Tome of Horrors (and the online Creature Catalog), I take it that anything OGL in those sources is now usable under the normal constraints of the OGL. Very cool, IMO.

[Bowbe]

No problem Philotomy. The topic has come up more than once in the past. Choice of logo/orcus mascot and so on was an affectation to the past. Use of monsters in the TOH was asking and receiving the permission to do so. Quite a surprise I assure you.

Case

[Arioch]

we don't need no stinking deities
ken
_________________
Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics

Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

Slice N Dice: Game and Pizza Parlour

WWBYD What would Brigham Young do ?
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html

[Tadhg]

Arioch wrote:
we don't need no stinking deities
ken

Rhu quickly moves away from Arioch as he searches the heavens above for lightening and then a place to hide!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth