M&T Exp Question...

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:09 am

On the monsters description the XP: is a number +2, or +3, +7, etc. I do not understand what this number means. Can someone explain?

And why is the exp value for most monsters so horribly low?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:14 am

Joe wrote:
And why is the exp value for most monsters so horribly low?

1) Its supposed to take a while for a character to level.

2) There are other types of xp one can gain during an encounter besides that of a defeated creature.

^_^
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:28 am

the "+x" is the bonus for each HP the creature had.

Plus, what Gideon didn't explain, is your also supposed to award XP's for gold, magic, etc...

Still, the rate of advancement is much slower than 3E. We've been playing my home game pretty much weekly, if not even more often, for two years and they are 12th level as a Paladin, 9/10 as a wizard/Druid, and 11/10 as a thief/wizard. The newest character is a 9th level Knight.

Did I award Xp's exactly by the book? No, but most of the time I did, and they have played through over a dozen modules and a fair amount of home brew stuff..
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:34 am

Treebore wrote:
the "+x" is the bonus for each HP the creature had.

Plus, what Gideon didn't explain, is your also supposed to award XP's for gold, magic, etc...

There are other types of xp one can gain during an encounter besides that of a defeated creature.

Yes I did, the above was all inclusive.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:35 am

But why take so excrutiatingly long to level?

The players are motivated upon the sense of accomplishment.

What do the +2, +3, and other numbers that follow the original value indicate?

For instance in the M&T on page 35 the Violtet Fungus has an XP: 20 +2.

What does the +2 indicate if not just additional exp?

It may be a dumb question.

Ah...yes I see.

Would that not tend to cause characters to become greedy treasure hunters rather than bloood thirsty monster killers?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:40 am

Joe wrote:
But why take so excrutiatingly long to level?

The players are motivated upon the sense of accomplishment.

What do the +2, +3, and other numbers that follow the original value indicate?

For instance in the M&T on page 35 the Violtet Fungus has an XP: 20 +2.

What does the +2 indicate if not just additional exp?

It may be a dumb question.

If the fundus has 20 HP then the +2 means 20x2 for an additional 40 XP.

My players are motivated to level, and when they achieve they often jump up and cheer. One even cried when they finally made 8th level.

Now they also measure their accomplishments by how many missions they have completed, how many monsters they have killed, and how many different species/types of them, how many people they have saved, how many firends and allies do they have, etc... IE, they measure their PC's much in the same way we judge the value of our lives.

How many friends and loved ones do we have? How much money do we make? How nice is our house? What jobs have I held and what did I accomplish while I had them? How much time and money do I donate to charities?

Etc....
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:42 am

Joe wrote:
But why take so excruciatingly long to level?

The players are motivated upon the sense of accomplishment.

Having a hell of a back story that earned that accomplishment seems like a good motivation to me. But I might just be weird.
Ive run players through a single scenario, by the book, and had them leveled up in a single session (at lower levels). When you factor in xp's for encounters, gold, role play, strategy and various other spot awards it adds up pretty fast.

Quote:
What do the +2, +3, and other numbers that follow the original value indicate?

For instance in the M&T on page 35 the Violet Fungus has an XP: 20 +2.

What does the +2 indicate if not just additional exp?

It may be a dumb question.

You multiply that number by the number of hit points that the creature has in order to add that to the xp total, the "20" is a baseline, I believe.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:10 pm

Treebore wrote:
the "+x" is the bonus for each HP the creature had.

Plus, what Gideon didn't explain, is your also supposed to award XP's for gold, magic, etc...

Still, the rate of advancement is much slower than 3E. We've been playing my home game pretty much weekly, if not even more often, for two years and they are 12th level as a Paladin, 9/10 as a wizard/Druid, and 11/10 as a thief/wizard. The newest character is a 9th level Knight.

Did I award Xp's exactly by the book? No, but most of the time I did, and they have played through over a dozen modules and a fair amount of home brew stuff..

I've been putting in similar time/frequency on my 3.x campaign and we are just cracking the tenth level.

I think this is because encounters just took so danged long in D&D. Maybe our level rate was quicker, but when you look at encounters per night we are getting much farther along in C&C and it matches the pace.

I make extensive use of DCCs and other modules as well as 'home made' battlegrounds.

So I don't see any difference in overall level progression per game.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:29 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I've been putting in similar time/frequency on my 3.x campaign and we are just cracking the tenth level.

I think this is because encounters just took so danged long in D&D. Maybe our level rate was quicker, but when you look at encounters per night we are getting much farther along in C&C and it matches the pace.

I make extensive use of DCCs and other modules as well as 'home made' battlegrounds.

So I don't see any difference in overall level progression per game.

If I had done the same thing with 3E they would already be Epic level. Around 25th level. If I did XP's btb.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:57 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I've been putting in similar time/frequency on my 3.x campaign and we are just cracking the tenth level.

I think this is because encounters just took so danged long in D&D. Maybe our level rate was quicker, but when you look at encounters per night we are getting much farther along in C&C and it matches the pace.

I make extensive use of DCCs and other modules as well as 'home made' battlegrounds.

So I don't see any difference in overall level progression per game.

I agree. Not a huge 3e fan but the level progression isn't much different from C&C if you use treasure for XP in C&C.

In my d20 Dragonlance game it took over a year of playing to get to level 12, and that was with 2 sessions a week. So yeah, there may be a *slight* increase in the leveling, if done by the book. But not so much that it is out of control like some think.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:19 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I agree. Not a huge 3e fan but the level progression isn't much different from C&C if you use treasure for XP in C&C.

In my d20 Dragonlance game it took over a year of playing to get to level 12, and that was with 2 sessions a week. So yeah, there may be a *slight* increase in the leveling, if done by the book. But not so much that it is out of control like some think.

Not so much difference in the first 8 levels, but after that it gets to be a bigger and bigger gap. The Paladin is 12th level in my C&C game, the party would be at least 16th level if we were going by 3E XP's and level rules. Likely much higher, but I am being ultra conservative. My non conservative estimate is above 20th level.

Using the 13 encounters per level estimate they would be over 23rd level.
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Jungger · Post by **Jungger** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:02 am

Quote:
But why take so excrutiatingly long to level?

The players are motivated upon the sense of accomplishment.

For me, this goes back to the old days.

If leveling was overly quick, it just wouldn't remind me of old time gaming (D&D) and that's why I like it the way it is. Just that simple.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:56 am

Treebore wrote:
Not so much difference in the first 8 levels, but after that it gets to be a bigger and bigger gap. The Paladin is 12th level in my C&C game, the party would be at least 16th level if we were going by 3E XP's and level rules. Likely much higher, but I am being ultra conservative. My non conservative estimate is above 20th level.

Using the 13 encounters per level estimate they would be over 23rd level.

One big gripe I had/have with the D&D system is it doesn't handle combat with a dozen or more participants real well. For example when we were running a 6-7th level encounter wherein an "army" of gnolls attacked the little village the characters used as their home base. It took all day (started at 7am finished at 2pm). I really didn't even use an army for either side. We had ten good guys (fours PCs, one cohort, and five hirelings) against eighteen bad guys (counting the nightmare the anti-paladin was riding but not the trained dire rats or wargs). We played non-stop, no lunch break, LoL.

The XP split was pitiful compared to if we ran through a dungeon all day instead. It just took so long to play out these scale battles (and we have played larger ones then this).

I was caught by surprise the first time I ran a large scale battle under C&C. We started at 11:30(ish) and wrapped at 3am. I was totally unprepared to play out the aftermath. I had expected the battle itself to last to at least 7am (likely 8am).

On the upside now I can actually use more combatants in a battle, if I want one to last as long as they used to. This could mean actually taking out an "army" of gnolls.
P.S. Lost amidst the rambling was that the xp/encounter ratio per level guideline is blown all to heckenbach because we regularly do "wars".
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:43 pm

Games starting at 7am? Ye gods man...what kind of cyborgs do you have for players? And you play until 3am what!?!?

All my players are married with kids and they start to turn into pumpkins by 930 or 10pm. What are you feeding them?

Yes, it does take too long for large battles in 3.X

As a system it is fine. It just seems to lack the feeling of the game which is why I got into gaming so many years ago. Instead of role playing I feel like we are playing individual troop unit small tactics war game. No more heroics, just playing the mechanics to best benefit...yawn.

besides, they made all the money on the limited consumer base so now are changing the system to milk more money out of us consumer slaves. I've had enough with making rich nongamers richer on a hobby true to my heart!

Thus my reason for C&C.

Yet I am not convinced the exp works.

I thought we found experience for treasure a cheesy element in the game back in the 70's or 80's. Isn't a vorpal sword or a bag of gold reward in and of itself?

It was eliminated in most house games well before the most recent edition.

I'm not sure if I like the idea. Some old ideas were replaced for good reason.

I imagine dungeons being searched every inch to find the gold you just know is hidden somewhere.

I also see CK's feeling compelled to give more gold than he would normally.

Then comes the problem of relieving the characters of so much gold that they threaten to ruin local economies.

I may run the exp as written just to see how it goes but.

Is a fantasy life supposed to take an entire real life just to reach high levels?

I enjoy seeing characters grow. I think everyone does. I suspect the reason behind slow level progression has more to do with C&C mechanics not designed for high level rather than a work ethic of 'earning it' that many seem to proclaim here.

Has anyone ran a high level C&C and what was your impression?

Does anyone have house rules concerning exp that does NOT count every little copper piece and magic item found?

I may use them as written, but my hackles raise at the thought of rewarding exp for wealth.

If that were true Paris Hilton would not be a clueless twit, but rather an experienced sage.

Yamo · Post by **Yamo** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:53 pm

Joe wrote:
I thought we found experience for treasure a cheesy element in the game back in the 70's or 80's. Isn't a vorpal sword or a bag of gold reward in and of itself?

Defeating monsters and acquiring treasure are both bread-and-butter activities for adventurers. Why would they not improve at their profession by practicing both activities? This is especially true of thief and assassin characters, whose professional skills are both optimized toward the pursuit of greedy ends. If thieves, at least, don't get experience for stealing, who should fighters get it for fighting?

Quote:
Is a fantasy life supposed to take an entire real life just to reach high levels?

My favorite D&D character of all time made it to 8th level after many years of play. If I had be running him as often as I did under WotC's rules, he'd quickly have reached level 20+. Since I enjoy playing heroes more than superheroes, I'm glad he advanced slowly. It meant more time to enjoy the game's "sweet spot" between 5th and 12th level!

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:31 pm

Experience gained for Gold in Dungeons & Dragons was a measure of the challenge. The actual experience award system was very complicated, but basically it was the half of the experience award system that the Players could allocate. In a lot of AD&D modules there is a considerable amount of treasure available.

Personally, I'm not inclined to run the game that way and when it comes to allocating experience, the party as a whole and individual characters get whatever I feel was appropriate for the challenge.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:35 pm

If thieves, at least, don't get experience for stealing, who should fighters get it for fighting?

I understand and agree with giving it for the act of stealing. Disable traps, pick locks etc. But the gold itself is the reward for his theft.

Until we give exp to clerics for healing both the foolish fighter, and thief then I cannot see the merit in your point.

If one were to say, thats just the mechanics of the game so deal with it. then I can understand. lol

But to try to justify exp for gold?

I picture paladins that have taken vows of poverty either being screwed...or breaking those vows in an attempt to desperately level. After fending off the horde of evil demons and getting a pittance of exp for it, does he really need to rifle thru pockets just to get his just deserts of exp?

Maybe this is something that can go around and arouns with nothing but subjective views being shared.

Soooooooooo...

My question is. Has anyone worked up house rules for exp?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:36 pm

I don't give XP anymore, and have not, for some time. I decide when a PC levels, based on what they do to earn it. Even a wizard or, heaven forbid, a paladin, can advance quickly if they are played well. One might say: "but this is unfair to the thief" to which I say: and how hard is it to play one? They advance fast... trust me. Fighters are right behind.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:43 pm

It is not supposed to be justified from a 'realism perspective'. Gygax says several times in the 1e DMG/PHB that it's a game mechanic convenience and that he expects some players to raise objections if they don't understand that.

In short, "those are just the mechanics of the game".
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:43 pm

As an experienced gamer and DM I accept Seleran's explanation.

But as a consumer gamer and a player I want a clear answer and solid exp system.

It is easier to point to the book and expain than to explain that it was because you thought this or that.

As for your comment of thieves leveling faster than paladins. Good point!

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:46 pm

I don't really think a solid experience system is desirable. That's one element of 3e that seems to get discarded time and time again, whilst the 2e version was basically 'here's some guidelines'. I can understand the desire, but I expect you will be disappointed with the result.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:55 pm

Good point Matthew!

We all wanted a solid mechanics for D&D.

Monte Cook gave us what we wanted and now we (I) wish to give it back for the grey areas of 1st edition just to get that old 'feel' back in the game.

i should be careful what I ask for, but I am trying to predict questions the players will have.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:29 pm

I give experience points for 'hauls' won (which means xp for valuables and magic items), creatures defeated, as well as story awards.

All in all, the campaign is advancing pretty much the way I'm comfortable with. With the 'story' awards... these are usually linked with completing and overcoming certain objectives. That way, it doesn't really matter what a class does to complete the object since each archetype may have their own way of doing it.

For example: A key is needed to access a building in town and is in the possession of someone not likely to hand it over. A Thief may 'lift' the key without this person knowing about it or simply use certain skills to break in. A fighter might end up being a bit more 'confrontational' to get it where as a bard may choose to be a bit more 'persuasive' in order to achieve the same results.

That being said, since I'm big on the whole 'party working together' thing, all xp gained is divided up evenly anyway.

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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:42 pm

Joe wrote:
Good point Matthew!

We all wanted a solid mechanics for D&D.

Monte Cook gave us what we wanted and now we (I) wish to give it back for the grey areas of 1st edition just to get that old 'feel' back in the game.

i should be careful what I ask for, but I am trying to predict questions the players will have.

Yeah, it's a fine line to walk. As long as you're consistant, players should be okay with the result. The last serious AD&D campaign I ran had a lot of House Rules and experience was just awarded as seemed appropriate. Over the course of about three years and 90+ sessions the party advanced from Level One to Level Six. At the outset of the campaign I asked the players how they would like experience to be awarded and they opted for 'equal shares for participation'. The only complaint came from the Player of the Half Orc Barbarian, who felt it took too long for him to advance from Level 4 to 5 (9,000 to 18,000), but I think that was on account of the rapid rise of a Human Fighter, who was Level 1 (0) when the Half Orc Barbarian was Level 3 (4,500) and Level 4 (8,000) before the Half Orc Barbarian was half way to Level 5 (13,500). He had only played 3e before joining my game, so it was understandable that he couldn't immediately see the 'fairness' of such a progression.

As I say, though, it was my fairly heavily House Ruled AD&D Game, but consistancy was the key to maintaining a feeling of fairness.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:19 am

Joe wrote:
Games starting at 7am? Ye gods man...what kind of cyborgs do you have for players? And you play until 3am what!?!?

All my players are married with kids and they start to turn into pumpkins by 930 or 10pm. What are you feeding them?

...

Does anyone have house rules concerning exp that does NOT count every little copper piece and magic item found?

I may use them as written, but my hackles raise at the thought of rewarding exp for wealth.

If that were true Paris Hilton would not be a clueless twit, but rather an experienced sage.

My team is all night shift workers. For a long while we would start our weekly game right after work (hence 7am to whenever). But somewhere along the line we changed the times. We played twice a week; sunday morning after work and monday night (everybody had monday night off). The sunday campaign ended and we are still playing monday nights because that is the night everyone has off.

We were thinking of calling our team the Nightshift Gamers but that name got taken
I usually set the treasure xp and that is that. If the players know they can keep looting stuff for xp the longer they will stick around doing that instead of going towards the end of the storyline. Basically this just means they get no xp for looting furniture, marble flagstones, statues, food, souvenirs (like claiming orcs' ears are worth gold), weapons, things that can make a weapon (broken furntiure), or anything else they come up with.

I tell them this so they expect it. That treasure from x is worth y and extra looting is just extra money, no xp.

Guess what? They still try to sell orc teeth necklaces and stuff.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:30 pm

As for the mechanics of one class progressing faster than another, its all based on their effectiveness in combat.

So weaker combat classes advance faster to keep their combat effectiveness close to what the true fighter/damage dealing types do, so they don't feel too useless. So thieves and assassins advance faster than anyone else. They have the lowwest armor, the lowest HP's (other than wizard), and the lowest liklihood to hit. (BtH progression)

Wizards do their heavy dealing damage to multiple targets, which is offset by their low HP, low BtH, and low AC and high XP requirements. Sorry, players can cry thats unfair all they want, but dealing 5d6 to everyone within a 20 foot radius is still far deadlier than the fighter dealing 10 HP of damage to one target, if they even hit. Wizard damage is pretty much guarranteed when its a damage spell. Hold person is a different story.

Even with hold person if they fail they are taken completely out of the combat, whether they have 60 HP remaining or 12 HP.

So its all about the numbers. How much damage you deal compared to the next class.

I find it a heck of a lot more balancing than what 3E did.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:33 am

One aspect of the system of gaining XP for GP that often gets left out of discussions, is that leveling up meant finding a mentor of some sort, and paying training costs. I'm sure not everyone played it that way, but the way my DM ran it, by the time your training was done a lot of that gold and treasure was drained off.

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