On the Anvil: TLG 8951 C&C Basic Game

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:32 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, it should be noted that these projects are being put out in order of their creation. The developmental process and planning of the CKG came before C&C basic.

But not before three books by James Ward were pushed through the pipe holding both the CKG and C&C Basic back.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:45 pm

Quote:
C&C Basic is for players who would otherwise play Labyrinth Lord or Swords & Wizardry. Every day you lose potential C&C players to OSR games.

As far as I can tell, C&C Basic was never meant to compete with games like S&W, at least no more than C&C itself competes with S&W, LL, etc. C&C Basic is meant to be an introductory RPG aimed at kids.

Julian has a point, though. Games like S&W are by their nature less complicated than C&C (and likely even C&C Basic), so I can see why one might choose S&W as an intro game for kids. However, I don't think games like S&W, LL, etc. where made really to target kids, but rather old school players who wanted to return to a simpler rule set.
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:02 pm

Frost wrote:
Julian has a point, though. Games like S&W are by their nature less complicated than C&C (and likely even C&C Basic), so I can see why one might choose S&W as an intro game for kids. However, I don't think games like S&W, LL, etc. where made really to target kids, but rather old school players who wanted to return to a simpler rule set.

They may not have been made to target kids but they work well for them. I know I am also looking at getting LL for this reason. Consider what the games are recreating. S&W recreated OD&D which is a simpler game and LL recreates the B/X side of D&D, which was aimed at younger players.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:03 pm

Steve mentioned earlier that the Basic set will be written in a style aimed at a younger audience. I think this is key. Layout and design, as well as the actual wording used in describing what the game is, how to play, etc. has to be done in a very different way, if you're goal is to aim at that particular audience. S&W is a simple game for kids to grasp, if they are taught it by an adult, that is. The layout and most importantly, the writing style, is not such that a ten year old will quickly understand.

I don't think the rules structure alone is the main point here. I think it all comes down to what a child of ten or eleven is going to grasp when he or she opens the box and starts going through the contents. Just my two cents.
_________________
When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:42 pm

Piperdog, from what I understand that is correct, and indeed writing RULES for an audience of 8-12 year olds is a very different dog then writing it for a captive audience of folks who are at least rudimentally familiar with RPGs either via video games, or some experience in the pen and paper genre.

Julien: I understand your feelings on this I really do, and you know that I certainly respect your opinion far and beyond our lurking Cthuloid friend. At the same time I felt our friends tone here was addling things in much the matter they always get addled in RPG forums. In other words to first bash, then promote. Bash TLG for not doing what they wanted, then promote something else? It feels a bit disingenuous to me.

I've got to tell you that I'm not Steve nor do I speak for him or the rest of TLG on this matter. I speak from having busted my ass over the last 8 year to get over 26 products in print and as many unpublished pieces on the desk of my various publishers as I can without a whole lot of distractions.

The thing I have learned is that you have to get your attention focused on jobs that must get done and ride them to the finish line. Sure you may work on 10 things at once but eventually one of those things is going to start "booking up" more than others. At that time you need to put the other stuff to the side and make it happen.

Also, If your a game company and you realize that fans are compelled for whatever eldritch reason to purchase a minimum 3 book rules set because "thats the way" its been done and the VAST majority of your return customers have clamored for that product for years beyond reckoning as our fine halfling friend pointed out. You must get that product done.

So, should we again divide our attention as we have so many times in the past to appease this ego or that persons needs and manage to again delay everything on an unknown potential (Basic)? Or should we focus on what is closest to being finished first, then the next thing, and the next thing on down the line to make sure that things actually do come out in a more timely manner than they have?

Rest assured Basic will be out at some point. I have no doubt it will be an excellent product geared towards younger gamers with simplified rules. The thing is... there are always going to be new gamers because kids are always being born and most of them have parents like us who are damned determined to make sure their kids have as much fun playing RPGs as we did! Or ELSE! Hahaha.

Later

C.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:53 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
But not before three books by James Ward were pushed through the pipe holding both the CKG and C&C Basic back.

And that's a case of things that take less work being put out to bring in revenue so the company can continue going while things that take more work are worked on.

As for these erstwhile 'clone games', I've made my perspective on those abundantly clear before, no need to delve into it again.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:09 pm

I understand what you're saying Pete. I may have spoke before I thought on that matter. On the clones my perspective is changing on them a bit. Especially with WOTC removing the PDF's of the older systems. While I don't agree with many of the things the so-called OSR has done in the past there are some things I have grwon to respect coming out of the movement.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:20 pm

Bowbe wrote:
Julien: I understand your feelings on this I really do, and you know that I certainly respect your opinion far and beyond our lurking Cthuloid friend. At the same time I felt our friends tone here was addling things in much the matter they always get addled in RPG forums. In other words to first bash, then promote. Bash TLG for not doing what they wanted, then promote something else? It feels a bit disingenuous to me.

I caught his tone and I do not agree with how he said what he did but I do identify with some of what he said. Keep in mind I speak only from my experience and my own perspective, which at times, does clash with long held opinions or beliefs.

Lately I have been looking at the landscape of the hobby and have come to a realization. That realization is the hobby is doomed if we don't get new gamers in. It is not about sales as much as it is this. Where we start getting the new gamers is with our kids and their friends. So, I believe something needs to be done in that respect.

C&C Basic looks to fit that as well as S&W and LL can plus C&C Basic will have an advantage of being in gameshops and easier to purchase than the close games currently are. However, I am a bit perplexed as to why TLG isn't offering a playtest yet to members that have kids in the range needed. My NDA should be current as are many others and I would be willing to do the needed work to help get it out.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:53 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
. However, I am a bit perplexed as to why TLG isn't offering a playtest yet to members that have kids in the range needed. My NDA should be current as are many others and I would be willing to do the needed work to help get it out.

Well, a lot of that is to do with logistics. Trying to get the CKG monkey off our backs is taking precedence right now. Once thats done, it frees up much time for Steve to coordinate such an effort.

Its a toss up. On the one hand, we've got people who want all this stuff out, yet on the other we've got the group of people who gripe about quality control because of two many pies in the air.

I guess, in order to maintain the improving quality, a couple of projects might have to be delayed a bit.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:00 pm

C&C is on the right course right now with the 4th Crusade. Get that MASSIVE project done and out of the way and then move on. TLG needs to do what it does to keep making products, and if that means push C&C Basic a little farther out, then so be it. I want C&C Basic just as much as the next person, but if C&C Basic puts the company in jeopardy for purely artistic reasons, then C&C Basic will need to sit.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:11 pm

For what it's worth, I think TLG is right to let the CKG take precedence right now. It has been the biggest log in the log jam. Once it gets out the door, it seems it will free the company up a lot to move with other projects.
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:06 am

Agreed, Frost. I think the CKG needs to get done. Once that is out the door, that demon will be slain.

I don't get too much into the clone games, myself. I understand why they came into existence. I applaud that, actually. Or at least why they were supposed to be in existence. But now that they've become "poor man's [old system]" or "poor man's [old system] with some tweaks" I've passed on them. When they were barebones systems for which to contribut to the "old school" movement, they held much more esteem to me. This is just my opinion and it's not meant to be fuel to any debate.

I do understand breaking someone into the hobby with a basic system clone, though. Despite what I said, I can unserstand it. For me, it'll be the Red Box. Or it will be S&W...maybe. But with my (aforementioned) viewpoint, I'll probably go with the former. One thing I can agree with, and many others probably can too, is what was said about expanding the hooby and how best to do it. I think our children (for those that have children) is going to be a large part of the hobby's future...if it's to have one. And whether it's 4e, C&C, some clone game, or whatever - as long as children are getting into the hobby, it stands a chance.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

maasenstodt · Post by **maasenstodt** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:43 pm

I think the question of how C&C Basic will compare with S&W and LL is interesting.

From a distribution standpoint, it seems to me that C&C Basic may have an advantage once it's in stores. It has the potential to reach more eyeballs than any OSR game to date and, if it's put together well, could be a great game for fledgling roleplayers. While the notion of a "new red box" may not be viable in today's market, I'd love to see TLG make a run at that kind of presence with C&C Basic.

On the other hand, both S&W and LL are wonderful games that are great for both beginners and veterans. LL takes what I consider to be the most useful and accessible version of D&D written (Moldvay/Cook) and improves on it with a unified format, some nice tweaks, and an available hardcover format. It's already in distribution and can be ordered from any Barnes & Noble, etc.

S&W takes it a step farther. OD&D, while being the simplest and best toolbox version of D&D written, was pretty rough. In both its core and White Box incarnations, S&W is dramatically easier to parse than OD&D, yet it loses none of that game's free spirit. Furthermore, the core version of S&W is in the process of entering distribution as well.

Of course, pricing is also interesting. LL and S&W are completely free in .pdf format. Print pricing is terrific as well. You can go to Amazon and pick up LL for a mere $16. S&W is still in the process of entering distribution, but you can purchase the White Box version on lulu for a mere $8.50. I look forward to seeing C&C Basic's price points when published.

The wealth of games and friendly communities supporting them make this a great time to be a roleplayer, or to be introducing the hobby to both kids and adults. I love to see a vibrant marketplace where both professional and hobbyist efforts challenge each other to be better. In the end, the whole hobby benefits.
_________________
Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? -- Henry David Thoreau

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:18 pm

As I tossed back a few Guinness with the Trolls Sat. night at GenCon, the basic set came up briefly. I think this will be an awesome thing for the future of the industry as children in the 8-13 bracket are introduced to rpgs.

One of the things we discussed was that the rule book had to be written in a language easy to grasp, in large friendly font, and lots of child-friendly illustrations. The whole art presentation was a topic for a while, as Steve recounted a story of a mom who was excited about C&C when he pitched it to her, that is, until she thumbed through the M&T and saw Petes ass-centric female forms (which of course I personally love), she politely gave the books back and never asked about it again. So the whole marketing strategy has to be reworked for kids.

For those that think this will be like the red box OD&D, you will be sorely disappointed. TLG has no intention to recreate the red box. This will be a kids game, and from it, we all hope kids fall in love with role playing and become life long hobbyists and contributers. Steve wants to see this in a chain toy store like Toys R Us, but Aldo, the distributor, was saying that this in next to impossible...to which Steve waived away and said it's going to happen. ( I think more was said on this, but I was half intoxicated by this point, lol).
_________________
When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:26 pm

As far as the art goes. Me and Steve have already had this conversation some time back. It'll be kid friendly, whatever that means, even if its not necessarily me doing the interior stuff.
Suffice it to say I have parents who operated on quite a different, and more broad minded, standard as such things go.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:19 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
As far as the art goes. Me and Steve have already had this conversation some time back. It'll be kid friendly, whatever that means, even if its not necessarily me doing the interior stuff.
Suffice it to say I have parents who operated on quite a different, and more broad minded, standard as such things go.

As did I Pete. Sadly, that I feel was the exception and not the norm. Whatever inhibitions partents may or may not have themselves, they're usually much more reserved when it comes to their children. I had a friend growing up who was very leery of D&D...for it's art. So yeah, for whatever reason parents get a little concerned sometimes. Hell, I'm one and I find myself checking video game ratings nowadays.
If C&C Basic needs to be kid-frinedly (and I agree 100%) then do it, I say. That's one more demographic that I feel TLG could devote one entry-level product to. And apparently Steve is going to be tackling this after the CKG sees the light of day (according to my conversation with him at GenCon).
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:39 am

Nevermind.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:45 am

I've heard that, JG, but I'd really like to stay with TLG if possible. I really want to get my kid started on RPGs, and I'm tempted to get started with the Mentzer Red Box, but I'm holding out for an offering from TLG. I can't honestly say something is better than the TLG version if the TLG version isn't out yet...though technically I guess it is better than the TLG version since there isn't a current TLG version.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:25 pm

Any new updates on this?
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:01 pm

I had some thoughts on this. Maybe you should make it out of magazine stock so it is inexpensive to get a hold of, instead of a box, use a heavy duty 'sleeve', and in the sleeve, the basic rule book, dice, and adventure. Ready to go.
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

Krazz The Wanderer · Post by **Krazz The Wanderer** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:58 pm

I don't think I've read anything about this lately... is it completely dead in the water?

As I move more and more away from 3rd edition and read more about the OSR and C&C I really have a burning desire to play something like this and my nephews would love it!

The basic (easy) to learn rpg box sets seem to be very popular idea right now. The Swords & Wizadry white box set just sold out and Green Ronin is doing the basic set 1 for Dragon Age.

So if this is no longer a go. I think I may have to try to make my own home version and use it to convert my family to the Crusade!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:59 pm

Its still a go. Its just in development.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Krazz The Wanderer · Post by **Krazz The Wanderer** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:17 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its still a go. Its just in development.

Does that mean it could be out in 2010? I only ask cause this thread was created over 2 years ago.

I ordered the S&W whitebox set so I could just use that. But I would really like to introduce my nephews (and even some of my friends ) to C&C.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:39 pm

Krazz The Wanderer wrote:
Does that mean it could be out in 2010? I only ask cause this thread was

There's a plan for it to be.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:35 pm

Just FYI, Steve mentions it as a 'big project' for 2010 in his new video...
http://www.facebook.com/trolllordgames

Kim
_________________
kim@trolllord.com

Click here: http://tiny.cc/4rvo5

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:54 pm

Same release date as CKG.
_________________

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:49 pm

Maybe I missed it, gents.

Is the basic set going to be race as class, like basic D&D was back in the day?
_________________
When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:37 pm

Piperdog wrote:
Maybe I missed it, gents.

Is the basic set going to be race as class, like basic D&D was back in the day?

Description does indicate so on the Anvil page listing
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:44 am

Ha! Thanks John. I should have read it again. I am looking forward to that set for my youngest son (and daughter); right now Labyrinth Lord fills the niche for them. Of course my oldest son (he'll be gaming with us at GenCon this year! ) says he will not lower himself to play LL(he thinks it is beneath him. lol.) and is a diehard C&C guy.

All in all, I think the Basic Set needs to get into Toys R Us and recruit some new young gamers that wouldn't normally go to a game store. We'll see if it gets in there or not.
_________________
When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

GreyLord · Post by **GreyLord** » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:21 am

Piperdog wrote:
Ha! Thanks John. I should have read it again. I am looking forward to that set for my youngest son (and daughter); right now Labyrinth Lord fills the niche for them. Of course my oldest son (he'll be gaming with us at GenCon this year! ) says he will not lower himself to play LL(he thinks it is beneath him. lol.) and is a diehard C&C guy.

All in all, I think the Basic Set needs to get into Toys R Us and recruit some new young gamers that wouldn't normally go to a game store. We'll see if it gets in there or not.

Getting it into Toys R US would be a MAJOR big thing that I think would be GREAT for the Trolls if they could pull it off.