C&C vs. 4E...Battle line being drawn

grubman · Post by **grubman** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:47 am

Ill admit it; Im not excited about 4E. Im not going to go over the reasons why because most people dont seem to understand them whenever Ive posted anywhere. Lets just say in a nutshell Im upset that a game that has been what I consider the standard of fantasy role playing since the dawn of the hobby has strayed from its true path in my opinion. You cant just up and decide to redefine a genre because of the trends of a new generation. Fantasy is all about tradition, myth, and historythings drawn from a bygone age, not from trends that began in the last decade. That is all my opinion (and not a popular on in the internet community, even though I seem to have a lot of people who agree in the real world).

In any case, one thing I have noticed is that the people who really cant tolerate hearing ANYTHING negative about 4E are the same people who turn up on C&C threads simply to crap on the game. Im not talking about discussion of the games virtues and faults (that is productive), Im talking about just to crap on it.

Ive noticed in the past that there has been a general respect and tolerance between 3.X players and C&C. Im wondering if the generation gap between 4E and C&C is going to push the acceptable tolerance limit beyond the breaking point. From this side of the fence, I foresee 4E material as being very incompatible with C&C in terms of mechanics AND tone/mood as it drifts further from what we consider traditional RPG fantasy.

Does anyone here foresee strong resentments either way in the future? A larger gap with less understanding? More resentment both ways? A deepening rift between older and younger gamers?

Or am I just F***ed in the head, like so many pro-4Eers seem to think I am lately.

RakintheBlue · Post by **RakintheBlue** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:22 am

I'm 26 and I play neither D&D or C&C, I'm an LA guy.

Where do I fit in?

bighara · Post by **bighara** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:51 am

Personally, I think folks who are going to gravitate towards C&C because of issues with D&D 3.X aren't going to be terribly interested in 4e. There will be those who aren't worried about what rules they play and will use whatever system is used by the people with whom they want to play.

I play several different systems, but I don't like 3.X and I'm not planning on buying 4e. I do like C&C and am perfectly happy with it as my standard fantasy RPG. WFRP for dark fantasy, CoC for pure horror, Savage Worlds for pulp/cinematic play (sci fi or modern), etc and Moldvay Basic D&D for rules-light.

pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:08 pm

My group just picked up an 18 year old guy who wants a simpler game, so he fell right into C&C. Two of us are 38 and we have a couple of guys who fall in between as well as a 40 year old. I myself believe that a good group is just a group that works well together and age isn't a factor. As long as everyone gets along and helps each other out and has fun the actual game is irrelevant. We play C&C, WFRP2, Iron Gauntlets and I am thinking of running RIFTS via M&M2.
_________________
Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

--Stephen Chenault

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

Post by **Fiffergrund** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 pm

I don't expect bad blood, here. First, most people dissatisfied with the current path of D&D have made some sort of switch. 4e isn't going to affect that. Additionally, I think C&Cers are pretty happy with their game of choice, and aren't likely to care about 4e one way or another. The word of the day is apathy.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:17 pm

grubman wrote:
Lets just say in a nutshell Im upset that a game that has been what I consider the standard of fantasy role playing since the dawn of the hobby has strayed from its true path in my opinion. You cant just up and decide to redefine a genre because of the trends of a new generation. Fantasy is all about tradition, myth, and historythings drawn from a bygone age, not from trends that began in the last decade.

Or am I just F***ed in the head, like so many pro-4Eers seem to think I am lately.

A perfect summation IMO. Which means I don't think you're eF'd in the head.

............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:31 pm

We find extremist behavior also among "old-schoolers". Just go on Dragonsfoot and try touching with a 10' pole anything related to 3.x, and you will see what happens. Fanatics are not tied to a generation nor to a game system. Unfortunately, they are uniformly distributed, and they do lots of harm

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:27 pm

Agreed. That's why I mainly stay here these days.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Malperion · Post by **Malperion** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:37 pm

I for one will likely play 4e when it comes out as my group and I love playing all kinds of systems. I have been running a Wilderlands C&C campaign for about a year now and my friends run 3e Midnight and Ptolus on alternating Fridays (our group is about 9-10 people on average). Pretty soon we will be experimenting with a hybrid D20Modern/D20 Call of Cthulu/Delta Green campaign and a possible resurgence of an old Empire of the Petal Throne/Swords and Glory edition campaign (due to a recent surge of nostalgia in my group). When 4e comes out, one of us will probably take a shot at running that one next summer.

Damn busy bunch of gaming geeks are we.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:37 pm

4e won't affect me much. I have C&C, WFRP2 and Savage Worlds for all of the gaming I ever wanted and then some. I don't like what I'm hearing about the direction it's taking, but then again, I am not the core audience for this new product. Either way, I will likely continue to play the games I have been playing and not worry too much about what the big brand is doing. I agree with Grubman that from the looks of it, the 4e stuff will be very incompatible with C&C. The power disparity alone between characters will be daunting.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:22 pm

People will play what they want to play. The arguing I see on various message boards over who's got the better game is pointless. Probably why I don't go to many of the other forums anymore.

The best anyone can hope to do is politely defend C&C, or whatever ones game of choice is, against any criticisms using reason and a friendly demeanor. All that the endless sniping or rigid adherence to any given camp causes is resentment and a whole lot of sensible people distancing themselves from rabid fans of any game.

What the more vehement defenders of any game seem to forget is that it is a game and if one is not having fun at it, there really isn't any point in it.

If folks enjoy 4E or any other system, more power to them, it ought not to effect anyone else if a fan of a given system does not wish to 'see the light' as it were and suddenly become a rabid defender of a given favorite system of choice.

Now I know the various game companies appreciate the support of their fans, but its not helpful when one is promoting their game of choice in a bludgeoning manner especially via the derision of other system.

A game system may not be to a given persons tastes, and such personages clearly have reasons perfectly valid to them as to why. Let these folks be happy with their choice and move on. Anything else just causes ulcers for all concerned. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Brutorz Bill · Post by **Brutorz Bill** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:32 pm

I was never too cool with 3.5, Love C&C, not even worrying with 4th. I used to go to ENWorld regularly, but now its so 4th ed heavy I mostly just hang out here with the Trolls. : )

Later,

Bill

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:39 pm

To be honest I don't care what WOTC does. I've found where I am happy and if someone else is happy with 4e, 1e or niether it doesn't affect me. That said, I do have an opinion of the whole 4e thing but opinions are like something else everyone has...
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Brutorz Bill · Post by **Brutorz Bill** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:18 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
To be honest I don't care what WOTC does. I've found where I am happy and if someone else is happy with 4e, 1e or niether it doesn't affect me. That said, I do have an opinion of the whole 4e thing but opinions are like something else everyone has...

Well said Julian.

B.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:21 pm

Quote:
but opinions are like something else everyone has...

Genital herpes?

Oh, wait, no. Group told me that I'm "special." Sorry.

Really, though, whatever happens will happen. 4e is good for C&C.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:21 pm

I haven't seen to much C&C vs. 4E, anymore than C&C vs. 3.X. But I am seeing a lot of 3.X people expressing their displeasure with 4E and refusing to switch to that version.

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

RakintheBlue · Post by **RakintheBlue** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:24 pm

You guys see these?

Quote:
DAMN
http://www.informationweek.com/news/sho ... =198000229

Damn again
http://www.informationweek.com/news/sho ... =197800480

Bye bye vista!...
http://www.informationweek.com/news/sho ... =197700789

Oops, wrong overbearing large superpower company...

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:27 pm

I agree with Peter. People will play what they want to play.

When I first started playing D&D/AD&D ('79/'80?), everyone was playing it. Most likely due to the fact that it was one of the only RPG games out there. Also, because everyone enjoyed playing it - regardless of age.

The two biggest factors that I can think of is 1) computers/computer games; and 2) the fact that they still call it D&D (Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know). Things have changed so much that it is no longer the same game. Yes, it's still fantasy, but not the same game. So be it - doesn't make it any better or worse than any of the different versions out there. I haven't played anything past 2.0 - just didn't care for the changes.

Nowadays, it's been AD&D/C&C/LA. I like it that way. Just game and enjoy!!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:35 pm

The only concern I have about 4e Dungeons & Dragons with regard to Castles & Crusades is that the 'simplification' of 4e is an attempt to retain consumers who are fed up with the byzantine nature of the 3e system. Castles & Crusades offers a clear alternative to Dungeons & Dragons in this regard. However, I doubt that 4e will remain simple for very long, considering the marketing practices of Wizards, so there is probably nothing to worry about.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:37 pm

Matthew wrote:
The only concern I have about 4e Dungeons & Dragons with regard to Castles & Crusades is that the 'simplification' of 4e is an attempt to retain consumers who are fed up with the byzantine nature of the 3e system. Castles & Crusades offers a clear alternative to Dungeons & Dragons in this regard. However, I doubt that 4e will remain simple for very long, considering the marketing practices of Wizards, so there is probably nothing to worry about.

From what I can gather 4e will be 'simplified', but by no stretch of the imagination is it going to be as simple or simpler than C&C.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Prince of Happiness · Post by **Prince of Happiness** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:40 pm

With 4E, from what I gather, it will *not* be backwards compatible for older material. Considering how much 3E material alone will be/are glutting the used shelves right now, that's a shame right there, but another arrow in C&C's quiver.

I remain ambivalent, ultimately, about 4E. I'm following along on developments on ENWorld, but that's about it. I don't have a pressing need to buy the same three books, yet again, in a different edition.

Coleston the Cavalier · Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:46 pm

RakintheBlue wrote:
You guys see these?

Oops, wrong overbearing large superpower company...

_________________

John Adams

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:59 am

*reads the title*

There are no battle lines to be drawn, because there really is no contest here. d20 4.0 Home Edition and Professional Edition are going to still be needlessly complex, and C&C exceptionally simple.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:12 am

Traveller wrote:
*reads the title*

There are no battle lines to be drawn, because there really is no contest here. d20 4.0 Home Edition and Professional Edition are going to still be needlessly complex, and C&C exceptionally simple.

_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

grubman · Post by **grubman** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:00 am

Traveller wrote:
*reads the title*

You know, drama and all that...

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:03 pm

Traveller wrote:
d20 4.0 Home Edition and Professional Edition are going to still be needlessly complex, and C&C exceptionally simple.

That is... AWESOME! *Quote of the Day Award* -ding-

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:46 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
From what I can gather 4e will be 'simplified', but by no stretch of the imagination is it going to be as simple or simpler than C&C.

Prince of Happiness wrote:
With 4E, from what I gather, it will *not* be backwards compatible for older material.

The funny thing is 4E may be easier to convert stuff to C&C.. (Heresy? )

I actually look forward to 4E as it may be easier to convert/plunder to my base of operations... (Namely, C&C! )

*Even with house rules from where ever, I would consider games I run as C&C, since this is the base... easier to build up then tear down they say...
_________________

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:54 am

Emryys wrote:
The funny thing is 4E may be easier to convert stuff to C&C.. (Heresy? )

I actually look forward to 4E as it may be easier to convert/plunder to my base of operations... (Namely, C&C! )

*Even with house rules from where ever, I would consider games I run as C&C, since this is the base... easier to build up then tear down they say...

Yeah, if the sample monster stats are any indication stealing stuff from 4E will be at least a little bit easier.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Dyne · Post by **Dyne** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:47 am

The people that find 4e appealing seem to be the powergaming/munchkin players, which tend to be far less reasonable and polite than other gamers. For that reason alone, I have no doubt the WotC lapdogs will be even more belligerent than the regular 3.x community.

As for our side of the fence, I think most people don't really care. At most, there's frustration and wonder at why anyone would pay over $100 for such a ridiculous game. Then again, some of the WotC game designers that I've communicated with have been irritating enough that I don't want to use anything they make.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:27 pm

grubman wrote:
I foresee 4E material as being very incompatible with C&C in terms of mechanics AND tone/mood as it drifts further from what we consider traditional RPG fantasy.

4e is a money-grab scheme, no more, no less. As such, they cannot remain with what D&D was, as it is doomed to become a limited business concerning but a few old grognards. Mass market now lies in the direction taken by World of Warcraft. If they want to make millions of $, clearly WotC must head there, and forget about what D&D was in the past.

Hence, with WotC leaving the traditional fantasy pen-n-paper role-playing field, using the DnD brand just to propel them forward, there is but Troll-Lords-Games (and a couple other small publishers) to take on the DnD legacy. I think C&C is currently what captures best what DnD was in the past, although other games derived from it or d20 still have their own merits (such as True20).

C&C is trying to keep the old DnD philosophy alive, while 4e, using the brand's recognition, is trying to evolve into something else in order to compete with WoW to make always more money.
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

Troll Lord Games

C&C vs. 4E...Battle line being drawn

C&C vs. 4E...Battle line being drawn

Re: C&C vs. 4E...Battle line being drawn

Re: C&C vs. 4E...Battle line being drawn

Re: C&C vs. 4E...Battle line being drawn