Monsters from AD&D (1st Ed) for C&C

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:08 pm

Since I am still new at C&C. I was wanting to use some of the monsters, namely demons, devils, and such to liven up my campaign later on down the road.

Have any of you all out there used any of the various monsters from the AD&D MMs for C&C. Other than converting the ACs, it looks pretty much like you can use them as is right out of the books.

Have you all found this to be so? I don't want to overpower the PCs, but I don't want to under challenge them either. What's the call?

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:21 pm

I know that certain creatures will differ from the C&C cousins but I haven't found a problem thus far by using 1st ed critters. I found them to be on par for the better part.

M
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:49 pm

You might check out the Rules, Law and Chaos section of this forum, Dangersaurus (among others), has done a lot of work converting monsters to C&C. With all of the conversions, in addition to Monsters and Treasure, you have more than enough critters for your games for ages.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:56 pm

Make sure you play the demons and devils properly, or they are not a challenge. Stats are not what makes them the powers they are. :evil

But, in general, you can use any AD&D monster without much work and it goes well for C&C. The AD&D dragons are less potent than C&C versions (makes them better for low-level fights).

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:52 pm

serleran wrote:
Make sure you play the demons and devils properly, or they are not a challenge. Stats are not what makes them the powers they are. :evil

Too true. It might even be an interesting to make demons or devils only as powerful as PC classes; but with true cunning and innovative CKs, these "less powerful" fiends could be true powers to contend with. There's nothing to say that a demon with an AC of 15 and 30 HP can't be the most powerful of enemies.

-O
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Barrataria · Post by **Barrataria** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:29 am

I recently asked the same question in another thread, and got the answer that the giants (in the G1-3 module series) might need to be juiced up a bit.

serleran wrote:
Make sure you play the demons and devils properly, or they are not a challenge. Stats are not what makes them the powers they are. :evil

Serl, can you elaborate a bit? I mean, I realize demons/devils are often misplayed, but is there something different with CnC that makes the phenomenon more of a problem?

BB
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:05 am

Yes, remember that spells given as innate abilities cannot be interrupted and can be used anytime, regardless of initiative, and all together at once! (note that the same ability cannot be used multiple times in one round, though, as that would just be horrendous.) This is a contested rule of AD&D, and one, that if followed, greatly amplifies the danger "psionic-like" monsters pose. For example, if a demon can teleport at will, that means its very hard to capture (likely impossible, really, without magical aid), nearly impossible to follow, and even less likely to be killable... because it can remove itself from danger any time it wants to. So, actual slaying is something that's going to take some extreme effort. Even the weakest of the ilk can run circles around high-level parties because they have innate spells... innate at will spells (those usable X # per day are treated normally.)

That's just one thing.

Demons and Gods will likely showcase how demons, to me, should be. They are not something to take lightly. One has an entire campaign around the defeat of a single fiend.... not "oh, let's go to Hell and slaughter everything."

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:38 pm

I would say just flip that AC around, change their "Save As", and reconfigure special attacks into C&C terms like no more saves vs wands, staves, or spells.

Once you've done that trot one out there. If the PCs whup it too easily prop it up a bit. If the PCs run away let it lose them in the distance.

One thing I had to get back used to in the first place was ditching the "CR" method used by D&D3. I kept wondering if I needed to adjust challenges all the way through the first couple of adventures. Then I remembered the CyberPunk method. Measure the top-end attack versus the median PC defense. If it doesn't one-shot them then use it.
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Malperion · Post by **Malperion** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:33 am

serleran wrote:
Yes, remember that spells given as innate abilities cannot be interrupted and can be used anytime, regardless of initiative, and all together at once! (note that the same ability cannot be used multiple times in one round, though, as that would just be horrendous.) This is a contested rule of AD&D, and one, that if followed, greatly amplifies the danger "psionic-like" monsters pose. For example, if a demon can teleport at will, that means its very hard to capture (likely impossible, really, without magical aid), nearly impossible to follow, and even less likely to be killable... because it can remove itself from danger any time it wants to. So, actual slaying is something that's going to take some extreme effort. Even the weakest of the ilk can run circles around high-level parties because they have innate spells... innate at will spells (those usable X # per day are treated normally.)

That's just one thing.

Demons and Gods will likely showcase how demons, to me, should be. They are not something to take lightly. One has an entire campaign around the defeat of a single fiend.... not "oh, let's go to Hell and slaughter everything."

My level 6ish party of nine with their henchman and craploads of magic items were pitted against a minotaur priest of Yeenaghou, his two minotaur bodygaurds and a small group a gnoll fanatics in my Wilderlands campaign. When things were getting desperate for the bad guys, The priest summoned a vrock, which gave the group absolute fits. I used the critter as is from the 1st ed MM: dropping darkness, teleporting all over the battlefield, resisting spells and whirling like a vortex of claws and talons. The party now has a serious respect for Demons (which is good since the Demon Empire looms in their future some levels from now...).

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:55 pm

Serleran

Demons and Gods? Is this a new C&C book due to come out in the future?
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:21 pm

Demons & Devils, huh? I'll believe such a book is in the TLG pipeline when my face is buried headfirst within it's pages.

Until then...

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:54 pm

Quote:
Demons and Gods? Is this a new C&C book due to come out in the future?

Yes, the word future being operative. I can't say when, but I imagine after M&T II.

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:23 pm

A possible M&T II book coming out as well. Cool!
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Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:13 pm

I found 1st Ed monsters to be perfectly workable with very little conversion.
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Brutorz Bill · Post by **Brutorz Bill** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:49 pm

Catweazle wrote:
I found 1st Ed monsters to be perfectly workable with very little conversion.

I've been using them with no problems as well. Just another reason C&C is so cool. I can pull stuff out of old books/modules that I haven't used in years.

Good Stuff!

Malperion · Post by **Malperion** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:38 pm

Brutorz Bill wrote:
I've been using them with no problems as well. Just another reason C&C is so cool. I can pull stuff out of old books/modules that I haven't used in years.

Good Stuff!

This is so true and makes me drool that I can inflict any horror to be found in monster manuals everywhere on my smarty-pants players!

The only issues that I have with monsters in a particular edition are whether or not the monster is strong/weak enough or has the features that I want (like 1st ed dragons being too weak or C&C dragons being too tough), not that they are not systematically portable.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:16 pm

That's the great thing, though. If you want to have dragons of variable "lethality" you use all of them. Take a little white dragon from OAD&D, and he's highly killable - take one from 2e, and he's a lot tougher, but use the one from C&C, and he's even harder (I think - not sure on that; haven't tried it yet.) Of course, if you don't have them all, its no big deal to drop the HD down, modify AC, just like you would for any monster you wanted to mess around with, or you can get the Dragons of Airdhe thing which has some weaker dragons.

Heck, you can even take something like an awakened drake from Paranormal Animals of North America and use it (I have, but that might be something decidedly difficult as a first attempt.)

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:59 pm

There was an old Dragon Magazine article that discussed beefing up 1st Ed AD&D dragons. It gave them CON bonuses, better breath weapons, wing attacks, etc.

I will see if I can dig it out of the garage this weekend.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:28 pm

Alwyn wrote:
There was an old Dragon Magazine article that discussed beefing up 1st Ed AD&D dragons. It gave them CON bonuses, better breath weapons, wing attacks, etc.

I will see if I can dig it out of the garage this weekend.

At least tell us what issue, I have the old Dragon Archive 1-250 so I can dig up those pdfs and check it out.