Listen as a Class Ability vs. Wisdom checks

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:52 pm

Three level 3 characters, a Rogue, a Fighter, and a Cleric are in a dungeon, looting a room after a succesful battle. They are all human.

Before the proceed, the party decides to listen for noise.

The Rogue, who lets say has a 11 Wisdom (not Prime), but has the Listen Class Ability, needs a 18, but adds +3 for his level.

The Fighter has a 9 Wisdom (also not Prime), does NOT have the Listen Class Ability, needs a 18. But he also gets to add +3 for his level!

The Cleric has a 17 Wisdom (Prime) needs a 12 and gets a total of +5 to his roll.

How is the best way to handle this? It would seem logically the Rogue should have the best chance to hear noise, it being one of his special skills, and yet he has the exact same chance to hear something the completely untrained Fighter does, much less being left in the dust by the Cleric.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:02 pm

Simple solution, let characters add their level to rolls involving their class abilities regardless of whether it's a prime or not.

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:03 pm

My answer to that probably won't tickle your fancy, but it is that the Thief is not as talented at listening as the Cleric.

This situation has come up plenty of times in my games.

Alternativly the fighter and the Cleric should not be able to add his level to this roll (only their striaght WIS bonus) because listening is not part of their special abilities. In this case only the Thief can add his level bonus to the roll.

..........................................Omote

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meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:12 pm

OK, ignoring the Cleric entirely and just focusing on the Rogue and the Fighter, they both have an equal chance of making a Listen check, yet Listen is a Rogue ability.

Omote, what you've said about disallowing the level in the case of the Fighter is what I've done in my games, but it always seemed...wrong. And it makes sense with the other Rogue skills like Pick Pocket, Hide etc. But a Listen check is nothing more than shutting up and listening for noise. Thus I figured I'd ask to see what everyone else did.

In older versions of D&D, Rogues always had an independant task resolution for listening than other classes did, so they were always better regardless. But now that everything is just a simple Wisdom check + mods + level, something seemed to be missing. Especially since the Rogue (and other classes with the skill specifcally listed) is supposed to be better at it than anyone else (minus those with Wisdom Primes and/or high Wisdom scores, of course).

james_austintx · Post by **james_austintx** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:50 pm

Do you think the old 1e chart would work in C&C? Or even the 2e way?

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:56 pm

Meepo, you are missing an important rule of C&C (PHB p.112 of the second printing), that is the possibility to never allow another class to add levels when another class's ability is involved. Also, the extent and effect to which a rogue's ability can apply are much wider than a cleric or a fighter can hope for. If the cleric or fighter succeed in a Listen check, perhaps they are able to understand what the people are saying behind the door. A rogue who succeeds, not only understands what they are saying, but perhaps he is capable of understanding that they are slowly moving to the door, or estimating how many people are moving etc.

Listening does not just involve "sticking the ear to the door"; it is also understanding what one is listening to.

So, the numbers involved in the check do not tell the whole story. Make use of the class abilities in a creative way which makes each class shine.

Cheers,

Antonio

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:22 pm

Would you allow a level to be added for a Race that has a bonus to Listen checks, say a 3rd level Gnome fighter? The Class doesn't allow the Listen skill, yet the Race does. Or would you make the roll without adding your current level but instead the +3 from Enhanced Hearing (plus WIS mods)?

Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:33 pm

I don't think I would add the fighters level to the roll but then again my players are lazy and they don't; listen if they have a thief in the part
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PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:43 pm

Since the Listen ability is a class based ability, other classes that do not have it, do not get to add level. It is just like the example in the book where a fighter tries 'sneaking' across a plank. He can do it, but does not get to add in his level like a thief would.

So the cleric, for whom wisdom is a prime, is a good listener. Better than the thief actually. Until the thief over takes the clerics ability because of training (level).
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:44 pm

PeelSeel2 wrote:
So the cleric, for whom wisdom is a prime, is a good listener. Better than the thief actually. Until the thief over takes the clerics ability because of training (level).

Course, the simple solution is to pick wisdom as one of the thief'sprimes.
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meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:53 pm

That makes sense. I think my biggest problem I'm having with it all is that I've got 25 years of D&D behind me yelling in my ear that all characters can hear noise (listen), but the Thief just is better at it. The same holds true for C&C, it just takes some extra training (levels) first.

Thanks for the response, they helped a lot.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:08 pm

meepo wrote:
Would you allow a level to be added for a Race that has a bonus to Listen checks, say a 3rd level Gnome fighter? The Class doesn't allow the Listen skill, yet the Race does. Or would you make the roll without adding your current level but instead the +3 from Enhanced Hearing (plus WIS mods)?

Race and class being two different "objects", you have to just add the racial (and ability) modifiers without levels. What a racial modifier tells is simply that the race has a natural "gift" for something. The classes' descriptions simply state that a class ability (like Rogue's Listen) can also benefit from racial gifts (since one could wonder whether a class ability "supercedes" a racial ability).

Cheers,

Antonio

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:13 pm

Dig it, I've got clear vision now!

Thanks Antonio.

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:34 pm

It took me a while to wrap my mind around the seige engine. I had a lot of theories. Then we converted all characters from 3.5e and started playing it. It is intuitive and fast in play. Easy to abjudicate. Easy for players to grasp and run with their imaginations.

I know one thing that annoyed me about the seige system until actual play was why they didn't just say 'Add +6 to roll for prime ability'. I had that for the first session. But my players, at least, found it faster to know 12 for prime 18 for non-prime. So we scrapped the +6.

A couple of things we kept from my theories:

1. The half prime at 15. A character can split one prime (only) into two half primes. These half primes add half level to applicable checks, rounded down. My group really liked that and I do too.

2. Three primes for all characters. Humans advantage is they a +10% to all experience.
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:35 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Meepo, you are missing an important rule of C&C (PHB p.112 of the second printing), that is the possibility to never allow another class to add levels when another class's ability is involved. Also, the extent and effect to which a rogue's ability can apply are much wider than a cleric or a fighter can hope for. If the cleric or fighter succeed in a Listen check, perhaps they are able to understand what the people are saying behind the door. A rogue who succeeds, not only understands what they are saying, but perhaps he is capable of understanding that they are slowly moving to the door, or estimating how many people are moving etc.

Listening does not just involve "sticking the ear to the door"; it is also understanding what one is listening to.

So, the numbers involved in the check do not tell the whole story. Make use of the class abilities in a creative way which makes each class shine.

Cheers,

Antonio

I agree completely.

R-
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:26 pm

When it is a specific class ability treat it as if the related stat is Prime. That is how I do it.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:42 pm

meepo wrote:
Would you allow a level to be added for a Race that has a bonus to Listen checks, say a 3rd level Gnome fighter? The Class doesn't allow the Listen skill, yet the Race does. Or would you make the roll without adding your current level but instead the +3 from Enhanced Hearing (plus WIS mods)?

From what I understand, officially, no on adding level. But the +3 is added.

But thats officially.

I'm one for busting up archtypes anytime I can get away with it. So any race that has a class like ability, for example the elf subspecies that has tracking, Id give it to them as a full class like abiltiy no matter what class they take.

Gnomes would get the class ability equivalent of listen even if they weren't thieves, in my game anyhow.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:46 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
From what I understand, officially, no on adding level. But the +3 is added.

But thats officially.

I'm one for busting up archtypes anytime I can get away with it. So any race that has a class like ability, for example the elf subspecies that has tracking, Id give it to them as a full class like abiltiy no matter what class they take.

Gnomes would get the class ability equivalent of listen even if they weren't thieves, in my game anyhow.

I do not quite like it. I do not see the point of giving a racial bonus (beside making the ability even more "powerful") if you get to add your class level anyway.

Cheers,

Antonio

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:51 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
I do not quite like it. I do not see the point of giving a racial bonus (beside making the ability even more "powerful") if you get to add your class level anyway.

Cheers,

Antonio

*chuckles* I was just saying what I would do. My personal game world operates on an entirely different set of parameters and what I would do for it is by no means to be taken as official for any other game. ^_~`
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:40 pm

Peters style strikes me as a "creature" in a constant state of polymorphing.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:24 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* I was just saying what I would do. My personal game world operates on an entirely different set of parameters and what I would do for it is by no means to be taken as official for any other game. ^_~`

Sure! I was just saying what I would not like in my game

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:52 pm

PeelSeel2 wrote:
Since the Listen ability is a class based ability, other classes that do not have it, do not get to add level. It is just like the example in the book where a fighter tries 'sneaking' across a plank. He can do it, but does not get to add in his level like a thief would.

So the cleric, for whom wisdom is a prime, is a good listener. Better than the thief actually. Until the thief over takes the clerics ability because of training (level).

This is how I see it as well. In time the rogue will have the best chance of listening.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:56 pm

It is also possible that the CK simply disallow any character who does not have a listed ability to try. For example, few classes have the Climb ability, so when presented with a 90 degree wall of ice with no rope or grapple device, and no handholds, the only classes able to try it would be those with training in it, which would be those with the Climb (or Scale) ability. A fighter would be out of luck, as would a wizard or cleric, though the spellcasters have other means at their disposal for clearing said problem. Remember the game's mechanics are not to be applied in every conceivable circumstance... only to those which are logically, and ruled by the CK, to be.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:34 pm

Treebore wrote:
Peters style strikes me as a "creature" in a constant state of polymorphing.

I tend to be rather flexable in the application of rules, aye.