Nature vers Nurture - Monster tendencies

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:50 am

This is interesting: if a monster listed as having an evil alignment is raised from a babe in a nuturing environment, would it grow up to be good?

What about the reverse?

Before you answer, think about the possibilities here:

Evil worg grows up in good environment to become good doggie.

K- no problem.

Evil goblin raised by ranger, no longer desires to eat human flesh raw, torn in strips from screaming victims...

Er...o.k.

But what about a green dragon raised to be saintly?

A gold dragon that gets made fun of a lot while growing up for having a big nose?

...etcetera, etcetera...

How much of monster nature then, is nature?

And I know I can make up the answer myself, but let's hear opinions and some debate first.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:02 am

Depends on the type of campaign I'm running.

Generally in my games though, critters are evil not because of how they where raised, they're evil because they are evil critters. Its born into them.

Raise that worg puppy with all the smiles and sunshine you want. One day he'll catch you slipping and end up dry humping your corpse as he feasts on your spleen.

Other times, I do run more of a morality type game though where questions like this come into play.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:03 am

Nurture.

No, actually, its determined by how I want it to have worked out.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:59 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Raise that worg puppy with all the smiles and sunshine you want. One day he'll catch you slipping and end up dry humping your corpse as he feasts on your spleen.

ROFLMAO! OMG, I have to make that a sig!

As to the OP question....gah, this is why I hate alignment systems at times. The monster is evil cause....well...its evil. Nature/nuture, blah blah. Kill 'em all, the Gods will know which are theirs!

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:55 pm

Why did you bite me? Because I'm a snake.

Many creatures of myth and legend are raised in a loving environment (changlings, that guy on Clash of the Titans) and still become bad guys. It's up to you.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:41 pm

Was that said Green Dragon nurtured from the point of hatching?

If a good temple had the egg and were able to get it to hatch and teach, guide, and care for this Dragon -- then absolutely!

If the green dragon was 'captured' ... I think it was only a matter of time before it ate you. Same goes for any creature that might have had the 'taste of blood'.

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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:10 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Raise that worg puppy with all the smiles and sunshine you want. One day he'll catch you slipping and end up dry humping your corpse as he feasts on your spleen.

I think I just came across my favorite quote from these boards...

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:48 pm

Neither.

If it is a monster, it is to be slain. If it is not a monster, its a NPC.

NPCs don't follow rules.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:55 pm

serleran wrote:
Neither.

If it is a monster, it is to be slain. If it is not a monster, its a NPC.

NPCs don't follow rules.

Whoa.
(never thought of it that way)
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AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:58 pm

A frog was sitting on the banks of a pond, about to dive in, when he was approached by a scorpion. The scorpion asks the frog if he can ride on his back across the pond. The frog declines, telling the scorpion he is afraid he will get stung. The scorpions tells him if he stings the frog, the frog will drown and they will both die. So the frog agrees. About half-way across, the scorpion stings the frog. As the frog succumbs the to poison and starts to die, he looks at the scorpion and says, "Why did you do this? You have doomed us both!". The scorpion replies, "It's my nature. I can't deny it".

Evil is evil. Don't fool yourself. Thats what they want.

drakahn99 · Post by **drakahn99** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:19 pm

nature, all you have to do is look at all the pitbull dogs that turn on thier owners or the cases of pepole trying to raise wild animals who inevitably turn on thier owners. ineveitably they will turn on thier owners.

with dogs your talking about many thousands of years if breading to get the traits of the wild out of them even then they still require some training to get them to act as thier master wants, and its still not an automatic response requiring some sort of command or prompt to get them to act that way.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:53 pm

For me, evil is evil. A worg may be trained from birth with some success, but it's evil and will attack it's master if given the opportunity. It may or may not attack other creatures. It would be about percentages and die rolling.

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jfall · Post by **jfall** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:12 pm

I think we're making the mistake of applying our real-life logic to a fantasy realm where such things as "good" and "evil" truly do exist. Would you call a male monkey that kills all progeny not his own "evil"? No, it's nature. But if one of us pulled a stunt like that you can rest assured that it would be considered highly evil.

This is slipping into the realms of the philosophical... But I think my point is, applying the "good" and "evil" thing beyond a simplistic and imaginary classification system is fruitless.

Besides, what Serleran said is spot on. NPCs are the ones that break the rules. All the others? Kill em and take their stuff.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:45 pm

I think that I agree with Serleran on this, as well. PCs, NPCs and Monsters are the three basic categories.

I view nature as being the overwhelming determining factor for the behaviour of Monsters in D&D. In my Home Brewed Campaign World, Orcs aren't evil because of their environmental upbringing, they're evil because it's their nature to want to behave that way. They can be conditioned to behave differently, but that basically entails breaking their will and reducing them to slavery.

I prefer my monsters to be monstrous, not merely misunderstood or primitive. I generally don't make use of Orc females or children either.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:23 pm

drakahn99 wrote:
nature, all you have to do is look at all the pitbull dogs that turn on thier owners or the cases of pepole trying to raise wild animals who inevitably turn on thier owners. ineveitably they will turn on thier owners.

with dogs your talking about many thousands of years if breading to get the traits of the wild out of them even then they still require some training to get them to act as thier master wants, and its still not an automatic response requiring some sort of command or prompt to get them to act that way.

Sorry, but that would requiring the 10's of thousand Pit Bulls that love and protect their family until the day they die.

Next you'll be telling me Rottweilers and Dobermans are as bad as Pit Bull's.

Plus in the case of Dragons and Orcs your talking about creatures of human level intelligence. Nature versus nurture can't be agreed upon for humans.

Why?

Because its both. If you are born with a chemical imbalance, or are exposed to toxins that throw your brain chemistry out of balance, your going to be "different". Some of these imbalances occur from birth, others occur when puberty is achieved, others result from accidents of some kind, these are all "nature". Nurture can have an effect, but all to often is not enough.

So I say Nature can often trump Nurture, but nurture is also capable of trumping Nature, and often has.

So arguments can be made either way, and therefore is up to how the individual game master wants it to work out.

Unless we want a thread of a debate that has already been going on in the real world, about humans, for centuries. Very possibly for thousands of years.
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:11 pm

Current campaign: definitely Nature - the world is painted in broad strokes and archetypes, so an Orc will always be evil.

But then again, the last 3e campaign I had was definitely Nurture - there was a non-evil Quasit, even. But that guy was hanging out with a Flumph, so it was altogether an odd situation.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:04 am

As a GM/CK I do this: the creature's alignment as told in the MT is the default and usual-normal alignment-behavior. However, there may be occasional exceptions of a good aligned goblin or green dragon, but this will be relevant with the adventure/setting (not a random encounter with a non-descript dragon or goblin that would happen to be good). In such a (rare) case, I would give some explanation: good goblin was raised from birth by kind and benevolent people and never encountered other members of his race; good dragon was "tainted" by some holy relic of good or what not.
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Nelzie · Post by **Nelzie** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:46 pm

I agree with Serleran and Treebore.

It works how I decide it works out. Sometimes that means that NPCs simply don't follow the "rules".

In my current campaign world, being or becoming Evil involves losing one's free will as the Dark Gods take over a being. Born as an "Evil" race, one is already under the more or less direct control of the Dark Gods and thus cannot be anything other than Evil.

As for Dragons. They were unleashed upon the world by the Elemental Lords who wanted them to destroy the seals which put a stop to the endless chaotic wars of the Elemental Planes. They were subsequently corrupted by the Dark Gods and used to sow terror and destruction across the world as the Dark Gods took over and corrupted more and more of the lands.

The Gods of Man "made" their own "dragons" and bound them to service to the Kingdoms of Man. Essentially, these Lesser Wyrms treat all of man (demi-humans included) much like a domesticated canine does. At their full age, they aren't much larger than twice that of the strongest of war horses. They grow quickly and were once numerous and acted as mounts for the Dracknights who did battle with the swarms of Dragons and their progenitors, the Greater Wyrms.

Anyway... I am digressing. Good and Evil are "real", measurable and have an impact in my current gameworld. If your character performs enough evil acts to shift alignment , he/she will eventually gain the attention of the Dark Gods and be consumed from the inside, becoming an NPC villain and will join the forces of darkness.
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