People upset w/ 4e = More gamers for C&C?

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:26 pm

I wonder, if WoTC lets Greyhawk go the way of the dodo, will Gary and/or the Troll Lords be able to acquire the rights to it and make it what it once was?

Wishful thinking on my part I know.
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Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Those of use who are old enough to have families and less disposable income than the average 13 year old.

Average 13 year olds have so much disposable income in the US??? I am not rich, don't spend that much in gaming, but know I can spend more (more than 150$ in november) in gaming stuff that the average teen-ager here...
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:06 pm

You'd be surprsed at the amount of money parents give their kids here. Not something I plan on doing but every day there are more and more kids with cell phones, playing WOW and getting mommy and daddy to pay for it, new Xboxes and such. It's scary how much money they go through.
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Jonathan of White Haven · Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:22 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Calling C&C a retro version of D&D (or AD&D) is starting to bug me. It's not. It did take a step back in time to gaming before D&D3 but then it took a step forward again in a different direction then d20. So it's not a throwback to old D&D.

I see C&C as a streamlined variation of 1E AD&D, which allows the CK and players to make the campaign as minimalist or rich as they wish. The rules have certainly cleaned up or removed many of the "inefficiencies" that were built into or tacked onto AD&D as it progressed over time. And there's no question in my mind that the SIEGE system has allowed the CK to adjudicate "free-form" or "off-the-cuff" PC actions that would have (and do) bog down a 1E AD&D campaign.

The actual combat system is much easier to comprehend and use, which is in itself a giant plus.

Converting existing 1E (and presumably, 2E) campaigns and modules to the C&C rule set is admirably easy to do, along with the ease of retaining one's favorite supplemental house rules.

The best part, as one who has misplaced all of his older, original 1E AD&D materials, is that the C&C core books are readily available. I'd been away from RP games for many years and had to spend the time and money hunting down the appropriate 1E AD&D core book replacements so I wouldn't have to keep borrowing them from other players or the DM. Without having them handy, it's difficult to scheme, don't ya know...
Essentially C&C is what 1E AD&D should have been.

Quote:
Or, maybe I should just go and get over it.

I'd almost be willing to pay to see that!
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:17 pm

Turanil wrote:
Average 13 year olds have so much disposable income in the US??? I am not rich, don't spend that much in gaming, but know I can spend more (more than 150$ in november) in gaming stuff that the average teen-ager here...

I had my first job when I was 12. Making $2.85 an hour. Minimum wage was $3.15(?) back then. I would work from 12 to 20 hours and let me tell you I saved none of it.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:19 pm

Jonathan of White Haven wrote:
I'd almost be willing to pay to see that!

*Looks at wish list of books*

How much?
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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:05 am

Turanil wrote:
Average 13 year olds have so much disposable income in the US???

Yup. Some don't , but many do. When I owned a game store, I had kids come in with a $100 bill to buy a box of Yu-Gi-Oh!. And on many occasions I had kids there with their parents dropping $100-$200 on packs of cards in a single day! Kids and card games were the life's blood of my game store until I brought in 40k. RPGers hardly spent money in my store, much to my dissapointment, despite me having a HUGE selection of RPGs. The internet was too big of a draw for those sales and for those that did, once they bought their books, that was it.

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:08 am

Jonathan of White Haven wrote:
Essentially C&C is what 1E AD&D should have been.

What I have been saying over and over is that C&C is what 3.x should have been, a logical evolution of AD&D and not a complete reboot.

Jonathan of White Haven · Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:01 am

CharlieRock wrote:
*Looks at wish list of books*

How much?

I'd almost be willing to pony up a dollar.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:15 pm

Harry Joy wrote:
What I have been saying over and over is that C&C is what 3.x should have been, a logical evolution of AD&D and not a complete reboot.

Yeah!

Johnny WH,

A dollar, eh? That's more then 10% some C&C modules. okay!

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Jonathan of White Haven · Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:04 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
Yeah!

Johnny WH,

A dollar, eh? That's more then 10% some C&C modules. okay!

I did say "almost"...I'm saving up to get a copy of CZ.
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Robocoastie · Post by **Robocoastie** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:03 pm

Treebore wrote:
It will definitely get more people to look at it. The question is how many people will like what C&C does for them.

I hate to sound pessimistic but probably very few. Today's RPGers are influenced by anime on on cartoon network instead of the "Dungeons & Dragons" cartoon like those of us in our 30s were. That's why Eberron and the horribly unbalanced classes outside the core PHB have been such a success for wizards. We pureists who remember the boxed D&D or even the Rules Cyclopedia or AD&D1e even are simply not Wizards target market.

Case in point, I ran a western pbp game once where a player wanted to be a samurai. Granted there have been a couple western movies with samurai in the past but those were a rare exception and they certainly didn't walk around in saloons with their katana. His influence? Cowboy Bob of course.

There's some hope of course, I occassionaly see on myth-weavers a person new to RPGing that announces they have the PHB and nothing else but are dismayed that they can't find a game which allows just the PHB. I try to recruit them ASAP or point them to other core only games (aka traditional D&D) that I know of before they can get corrupted. It really is marketing to keep one's hobby alive. That's why Linux and MAC fans do it, without marketing for their system it slips further in irrelevance for them. At least we live in a day now where if sales ever fell too short our beloved system at least could function and live on in pdf form.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:19 pm

Robocoastie wrote:
I hate to sound pessimistic but probably very few. Today's RPGers are influenced by anime on on cartoon network instead of the "Dungeons & Dragons" cartoon like those of us in our 30s were. That's why Eberron and the horribly unbalanced classes outside the core PHB have been such a success for wizards. We pureists who remember the boxed D&D or even the Rules Cyclopedia or AD&D1e even are simply not Wizards target market.

Case in point, I ran a western pbp game once where a player wanted to be a samurai. Granted there have been a couple western movies with samurai in the past but those were a rare exception and they certainly didn't walk around in saloons with their katana. His influence? Cowboy Bob of course.

There's some hope of course, I occassionaly see on myth-weavers a person new to RPGing that announces they have the PHB and nothing else but are dismayed that they can't find a game which allows just the PHB. I try to recruit them ASAP or point them to other core only games (aka traditional D&D) that I know of before they can get corrupted. It really is marketing to keep one's hobby alive. That's why Linux and MAC fans do it, without marketing for their system it slips further in irrelevance for them. At least we live in a day now where if sales ever fell too short our beloved system at least could function and live on in pdf form.

Also they have to have everything in a box. Want a samurai, need to buy the book that has that class in it. Don't even think about making a samurai class yourself (or worse yet, a fighter that plays like a samurai). Want new spells? Don't make any. Wait for another Complete Waste to come out. Once these players have been trained to think only for in the box they can't concieve of playing a game where you go out of it.
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Robocoastie · Post by **Robocoastie** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:41 pm

that's a good point about the boxed thinking. I saw a thread recently where a players was saying the game couldn't use Action Points because AP is only a rule in D20 Modern. Another player corrected him and said well it's in Eberron too actually. The other fellow replied "this isn't Eberron." My gawd, we've come a LONG way since "the rules are your servant not your master" which original D&D and AD&D1 stressed.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:44 pm

I find that funny thinking. Especially since I just modded two races to make two new races that fit the setting I am working on.
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GreyLord · Post by **GreyLord** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:15 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I just had another thought. WOTC seems to be ignoring a demographic of gamers that TLG is picking up. Those of use who are old enough to have families and less disposable income than the average 13 year old. There are those of us who have turned gaming into a family event, our own take on the 'Family game night' so to speak. TLG's price points are very friendly to us and the C&C rules are helpful for all ages of gamer. This may be a pool that TLG wants to pursue in the future.

I know I have, and spend more money on stuff than when I was 13. Actually, looking at the purchase I've made over the past few months a 13 year old would have to have the equivalent of a minimum wage job to match what I spend on gaming...sooooooo

Perhaps WotC is catering to those who are younger, but not necessarily those with a greater amount of disposable income than some of the older crowd.

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:30 am

GreyLord wrote:
I know I have, and spend more money on stuff than when I was 13. Actually, looking at the purchase I've made over the past few months a 13 year old would have to have the equivalent of a minimum wage job to match what I spend on gaming...sooooooo

Perhaps WotC is catering to those who are younger, but not necessarily those with a greater amount of disposable income than some of the older crowd.

Well, on average I'm sure that a majority of 13 year olds have more disposable income for gaming materials, or at least don't have a wife with whom they must share disposable income.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:03 am

CharlieRock wrote:
Also they have to have everything in a box. Want a samurai, need to buy the book that has that class in it. Don't even think about making a samurai class yourself (or worse yet, a fighter that plays like a samurai). Want new spells? Don't make any. Wait for another Complete Waste to come out.

LOL! Perfect!

Quote:
Once these players have been trained to think only for in the box they can't concieve of playing a game where you go out of it.

EXCELLENT POINTS!

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:07 am

Robocoastie wrote:
Today's RPGers are influenced by anime on on cartoon network instead of the "Dungeons & Dragons" cartoon like those of us in our 30s were. .

What ever happened to sources such as Knights of the Round Table, Conan, and LotR being influences? I fear you are right for the most part.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:06 am

GreyLord wrote:
I know I have, and spend more money on stuff than when I was 13.

Me too. It's not even a close call.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:12 pm

Dristram wrote:
What ever happened to sources such as Knights of the Round Table, Conan, and LotR being influences? I fear you are right for the most part.

I actually was read Conan for bedtime stories as a kid. I still fondly remember going to sleep to Red Nails and the Devil in Iron (my favs) among others.

Boy, my Dad got tired of Devil in Iron.
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Kathorus · Post by **Kathorus** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:20 pm

Hello fellow adventurers!!!

Felt this was the best place to post my first post in these forums.

I was real excited when the news of 4th ed. was first annouced. Reason? They seemed to finally be putting out a supported electronic tool to track and prepare for the game.

Then the Design & Development columns started, and from the way it looked, they might be bring back the old feel that I remembered D&D having. I actively posted on the WotC forums, which is something I haven't ever done. Most of my posts were of excitement over the direction that they appear to be moving with D&D, I could overlook the MMO arguments, the Anime flavor, even the loss of some old D&D things, such a Vancian spellcasting. I wanted my prep time as a DM to be used in the crafting of story and setting, not spending hours making up NPCs by the book.

Will WotC follow through? I don't know and I don't care. I saw someone post about C&C. I gave the quick start rules a once through, and when I was done, I was sold... The Rules Are Your Servant...

That simple statement melted away years of "streamlined" and "balance" arguments, the designers of C&C had put to paper what I had been craveing, but could not put my finger on what was missing.

The Rules Are Your Servant!

I put my group through the free adventure using the quick start rules this past Saturday. The effect was amazing, we used to get 3 or 4 encounters done, we doubled that number, and considered this a play-test session.

I have Converted. It is a shame that D&D is changeing, but I'm glad that with C&C I can still play D&D.

Telhawk · Post by **Telhawk** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:34 pm

All welcomes, Kathorus!

Quite frankly, I regard this as pretty much the most positive development possible; we have a special spot in our hearts here for the "converted", but it's also good to have someone who's still tapped into the WotC D&D 3.x and 4.0 pipeline. I, for one, would more than welcome a viewpoint that is able to have a rounded, balanced regard for both game systems - d20 and SEIGE - and give insights and comparisons of the two without undue prejudice. Hoping that the gang here is to your tastes, and don't hesitate to regale us with the latest developments with the 4.0 situation and your own group's experience with C&C.

P.S.: Watch out for that gideon_thorne guy and his attempts to further his pyramid scheme empire by getting you to sell your friends two copies each of the Player's Handbook, and each of them to sell two copies, and so on...

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:36 pm

Telhawk wrote:
P.S.: Watch out for that gideon_thorne guy and his attempts to further his pyramid scheme empire by getting you to sell your friends two copies each of the Player's Handbook, and each of them to sell two copies, and so on...

Damn right.. He should walk the plank and have his timber professionally shivered by rabid girl pirates..
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:37 pm

I would say to watch out for me, but that would be rather obvious, wouldn't it?

Robocoastie · Post by **Robocoastie** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:00 pm

WoTC's plans to make online tools are actually welcome to me in a way since I rely on pbp for gaming but what they are creating is more for real-time from what I understand.

I've started using a combinatino of dundjini and fantasy grounds 2 for mapping for my pbp games. You'd think in our technological and web-centric age there'd be more tools for our hobby even.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:54 am

Welcome, Kathorus! Great first post, and wonderful to see a new convert!

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:19 am

Kathorus wrote:
Hello fellow adventurers!!!

Felt this was the best place to post my first post in these forums.

I was real excited when the news of 4th ed. was first annouced. Reason? They seemed to finally be putting out a supported electronic tool to track and prepare for the game.

Then the Design & Development columns started, and from the way it looked, they might be bring back the old feel that I remembered D&D having. I actively posted on the WotC forums, which is something I haven't ever done. Most of my posts were of excitement over the direction that they appear to be moving with D&D, I could overlook the MMO arguments, the Anime flavor, even the loss of some old D&D things, such a Vancian spellcasting. I wanted my prep time as a DM to be used in the crafting of story and setting, not spending hours making up NPCs by the book.

Will WotC follow through? I don't know and I don't care. I saw someone post about C&C. I gave the quick start rules a once through, and when I was done, I was sold... The Rules Are Your Servant...

That simple statement melted away years of "streamlined" and "balance" arguments, the designers of C&C had put to paper what I had been craveing, but could not put my finger on what was missing.

The Rules Are Your Servant!

I put my group through the free adventure using the quick start rules this past Saturday. The effect was amazing, we used to get 3 or 4 encounters done, we doubled that number, and considered this a play-test session.

I have Converted. It is a shame that D&D is changeing, but I'm glad that with C&C I can still play D&D.

Welcome! I'm glad you like the game and hope you have many C&C adventures ahead

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:51 pm

Well met Kathorus. Look forward to hearing what you have to say about the upcoming 4th Ed of D&D. Maybe you can provide us with an objective look.

I am a recent convert myself, I really like the old nostalgic feel of C&C.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:21 pm

I cant wait to see how 4.0 turns out either. I'm pretty much set with C&C and LA as my main games and a few strange small press rpg's that I love to find from time to time but I will get 4.0 just to really see what they have done with it.

To be honest it would have to be the Holy Grail of RPG's to get me to even try to start playing it. I just dont want to spend the $ for the 5th time for the same game. with all the money I spent on D&D over the past 30 years I could buy a friggin car.
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