Racial Class modifiers

yipwyg2 · Post by **yipwyg2** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:41 am

I noticed that some races gain bonuses to checks depending on what class they choose. They also have bonuses to "skills" listed in their racial descriptions. For example

gnomes gain a +3 bonus to all listen checks

under theif/assassin modifier it lists +3 to listen

Do these two bonuses stack for a total of +6?

Elves gain +2 to all listen checks

however only the thief assassin lists the +2 listen check the ranger does not.

Is it because by the rules only theives and assassins gain the listen ability?

thanks for any info.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:55 am

Yep. They do not, officially, add together, though many, like myself, stack them, as a way to encourage racial archetypes (that is, halflings are better rogues than they are druids...). Note, though, that the racial adjustment still applies if the CK allows the character to make a check for an unclassed ability, so an elven fighter is better than a human fighter at moving silently but neither is anywhere near as good as an actual rogue of any race, and an elven rogue beats them all hands down.

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:40 am

serleran wrote:
Yep. They do not, officially, add together, though many, like myself, stack them, as a way to encourage racial archetypes (that is, halflings are better rogues than they are druids...).

Any race can take any class, though, right? Or is it up to the CK to determine if there are limits on what races can take what classes?
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:43 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
Any race can take any class, though, right? Or is it up to the CK to determine if there are limits on what races can take what classes?

In spirit yes. I allow any race/calss combo as long as the player comes up with a believable character background to justify somethings like a dwarf druid. If you want to limit it look as the Typical Classes under the racial descritpions and limit each class to those.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:45 am

serleran wrote:
Yep. They do not, officially, add together, though many, like myself, stack them, as a way to encourage racial archetypes (that is, halflings are better rogues than they are druids...). Note, though, that the racial adjustment still applies if the CK allows the character to make a check for an unclassed ability, so an elven fighter is better than a human fighter at moving silently but neither is anywhere near as good as an actual rogue of any race, and an elven rogue beats them all hands down.

I think it makes sense for them to stack... I mean if you choose a human character to play, you may not get these racial bonuses but you do get a third prime attribute to choose from.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:28 pm

I stack them up! I do this because it makes the game easier in the long run, and as stated it encourages standard racial types. This method of stacking also makes teaching the game easier.

.....................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:30 pm

Quote:
Any race can take any class, though, right? Or is it up to the CK to determine if there are limits on what races can take what classes?

Any race can be of any class, by the rules as written. Each race mentions "typical" classes, as a means to encourage and showcase the general archetype tendencies, but particular characters do not need follow. A CK is well within rights to disallow a particular combination, however, based on race or attributes (for example, a character with a 3 Intelligence is not going to make an effective wizard), but that is left to their discretion.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:44 am

I do not make the bonuses stack. To me, the description is simply an indication that you are allowed to cumulate a racial ability with a class ability (which, given how the system of adding class levels works, would not be immediate a priori).

Also, why double a bonus when there is already the addition of the class level? As they stand, the rules are quite clear: if you have a racial bonus, you get to use it for the check. If there is a class ability which can benefit from you racial gift, you get to sum the bonus and the level. Straight and clear.

Cheers,

Antonio

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:56 pm

I trust this would also include an Elven Fighter who takes longsword (or a bow) as their weapon specialization? The +1 and +1 do not stack?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:26 pm

No, they would.

Geron Raveneye · Post by **Geron Raveneye** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:07 pm

Is it just me, or does this same discussion come up again every 4 to 5 weeks, with the same results? Just wondering if I'm having weird flashbacks here due to exam stress.

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:13 pm

Perhaps...though my question was about special abilities combining with racial abilities, which apparently has the opposite answer of Listen checks.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:42 pm

Well, a class ability has an XP cost, so it would be counter-productive to not grant the character the ability they are "paying" for. Racial abilities are "free" in terms of XP. Therefore, an elf gets his +1 to hit with a longsword, but if he also happens to be a fighter, he gets the fighter's +1 to hit, too....

Racial "skill bonuses" aren't the same type of thing, since they apply equally. The benefit of having race/class cross-over is level always gets added, with a bonus. So, an elven thief who tries to move silently has a much higher chance than an elven chicken-herder.

I don't see the confusion or problem.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:54 am

I completely agree, having gone through this in a similar thread called 'Racial Ability Check Modifiers' and it take some time to initially wrap my head around... This topic is definately as popular (or unpopular) as Multiclassing!

Ultimately, the various skill-based abilities and racial modifiers do not stack (despite what is written earlier in this thread... that was before the *other* thread).

Specialization is not a skill-based ability and elves would get the +1 to hit added to the benefits of specialization.

At least that's how I currently run it.

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:38 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
Ultimately, the various skill-based abilities and racial modifiers do not stack.

Specialization is not a skill-based ability and elves would get the +1 to hit added to the benefits of specialization.

That just makes no sense. You mean Fighters aren't "skilled" with their swords? How would you describe it then? Aren't both "specialization" and "Listen" class abilities?

It also makes so sense that given two Thieves, a human and an elf, otherwise being equal, that the elf would not have a slightly better Listen check.

I play Serleran's way. My brain is too sensitive to contradiction not to.

irda ranger · Post by **irda ranger** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:42 pm

To beat the dead horse a little (I just thought of this after posting the last), using the "Does not stack" rule actual discourages racial archetypes. I mean, why would you bother taking the hit of losing a Prime as an elven ranger, when half your racial abilities just don't matter by 2nd level? The "does not stack" rule actually encourages "non standard" combinations like Dwarven Thieves, simply because the Dwarven Thief (unlike the Halfling Thief) still has all of his racial abilities come 3rd level.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:19 am

irda ranger wrote:
That just makes no sense. You mean Fighters aren't "skilled" with their swords? How would you describe it then? Aren't both "specialization" and "Listen" class abilities?

It also makes so sense that given two Thieves, a human and an elf, otherwise being equal, that the elf would not have a slightly better Listen check.

I play Serleran's way. My brain is too sensitive to contradiction not to.

I was trying to differentiate them through terminology. If we want to drop into 3.x mode for a moment... Specialization is like a FEAT and Listen is like a Skill.

For C&C purposes, Specialization doesn't tie in to an ability score and is unaffected by primes, or have possible level modifiers... etc.. etc... etc.

On the other hand, Listen falls in the realms of the SIEGE mechanic. It is (if I'm not mistaken) a Wisdom based skill.

An human fighter and an elven fighter... who has a better chance at hearing? The elf... The elf gets a +2 bonus to listen. Being a fighter who isn't as 'trained' in the ability he only gets a +2 plus what he rolls.

An elven rogue compared to the elven fighter still only gets the +2... his hearing isn't 'augmented' just because of his profession but his profession has taught him what to listen for.

In other words, an elven fighter rolls a d20 + 2

BUT the elven rogue rolls a d20 +2 + lvl

Using your human thief example... rolls a d20 + lvl (but not the +2)

Hence an elven rogue is better than an elven fighter at listening and BOTH are better than the poor human fighter.

And that is done without 'stacking'.

Does that clarify things? By all means... you can feel free to stack them if you wish -- other CKs do. However, I personally don't like the idea of giving Gnome thieves a +6 bonus to listen due to stacking when the mechanics work just as well without the stacking benefit.

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:58 am

irda ranger wrote:
To beat the dead horse a little (I just thought of this after posting the last), using the "Does not stack" rule actual discourages racial archetypes. I mean, why would you bother taking the hit of losing a Prime as an elven ranger, when half your racial abilities just don't matter by 2nd level? The "does not stack" rule actually encourages "non standard" combinations like Dwarven Thieves, simply because the Dwarven Thief (unlike the Halfling Thief) still has all of his racial abilities come 3rd level.

The abilites are not lost... an elven ranger will always be better than a human ranger. Consider Move Silently and this interpretation.

If both move at less than half speed... the human ranger has to make a successful check. The elven ranger on the other hand does not (as long as it is in the wilderness). Hell... even an elven fighter would not -- it is a racial ability after all. But if both rangers are moving faster than half speed, they incur a -5 penalty and both have to make a successful roll. The elven ranger does get a +2 added to the roll (or is you rather, the elven ranger gets a -3 penalty whereas the human ranger gets a -5).

Once again, it is an interpretation of the overall mechanic which I'm applying across the board here. Of course, if you read the desription very well, you'll notice that the +2 is specified only for the classes which get Move Silently as an ability... no other +2 bonus is mentioned. Stacking doesn't even apply here as there is nothing to stack given how it is written.

As to what you mentioned about Primes... Elves and other demi-humans get several abilities or resistances not just one and there is always an edge with these abilities no matter what level the character happens to be.

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com