For thsoe of us keeping an eye on 4E...

[Treebore]

Today is the first time I have read anything to make me hopeful that 4E could be going in directions I can like.

It still sounds overly complicated in a lot of ways, but at the very least it does sound like it may have a fair number of good ideas for me to steal for my games.

"There are three sample power writeups from the PHB. These are in draft form, and their names will be changed before publication (I personally like the names, along with Feather Me Yon Oaf!)

I'm Batman: a ranged attack gets your opponent's attention and lures it towards you. You then jump up and deliver a follow-up attack.

The Rabble Yammer In Terror: A stinging blow to an enemy causes his allies to shirink back unwilling to get too close to you.

Go Ahead And Hit Me: A glare gives you an edge over foes.

I noticed on the [EN World] boards a discussion about a the term "combat advantage". It's mentioned in the book as a combat modifier gained when your oppponent's defenses are compromised. Example situations are flanking and other special abilities. Rogues can sneak attack when they have combat advantage, which apparently happens a lot.

There's also a discussion on skills - the skill list is half the length it was, with many combined. Open Lock/Sleight of Hand, Knowledge Arcana/Spellcraft/Read Magic, Listen/Spot, Hide/Move Silently all combined into single skills as examples.

Trapfinding is a feat that rogues get for free, but which other characters can take.

A warlock's eldritch blast seems to be flexible, affected by feats - set it afire, hit multiple enemies, turn it into a "force of crawling darkness". They can also use something called soul ruin in melee, short range teleports (and later, teleport enemies closer or farther), delvier curses (cage of blood, emerald coils, turn blood into acid). The warlock's main tools are pacts (fey, infernal, star or vestige) each of which is associated with a bunch of curses, which are per-encounter and deal high damage and/or restrict movement and action; plus the cursed critter takes extra damage from eldritch blast and soul ruin. The class uses "over-the-top" power names (curse of the bloodfang beast, chains of misery).

Alignment: it mentions Good, it mentions Evil and it mentions Unaligned. No reference to Law/Chaos or Neutraility. Most PCs are unaligned, with exceptional ones being champions of good or evil. Alignment's just not as important for most characters.

Wizards have spells and power words. Power words drain your energy and cna be used time and time again. The wizard is designed to "make things go boom". Metamagic and Item Creation feats are gone. Item Creation is now a ritual.

You can grab some basic class abilities if you want to dabble in another class - a wizard could take the Fighter Training feat, or a rogue could take Wizard Training. These allow you to flavor your class but don't dilute it.

Schools are heavily redesigned: lots of stuff moved to rituals (Abjuration's long term wards and restorative spells, Conjuration's teleportation, all of Divination, Enchantment reduced and saved for "future classes", Evocation expanded for more blowing-up potential, Illusions still common, Necromancy nerfed, Transmutation's polymorph gone). School is gone as a mechanical division.

Warlord is confirmed as a martial character.

The paragon path and epic destiny thing - PrC's are gone completely. You pick up your paragon path at 11th level, and your epic destiny at 21st level. You get those abilities as you level up in addition to your main class stuff, not instead of. Some look like old PrCs, and weapon master, prince of knaves and cavalier mentioned. There are currently 12 PPs and "fewer" EDs. The EDs give big benefits and are things like being the right hand man to a god, undying warrior or calling dragons with a wave of your hand. "

I find it funny that they are getting rid of polymorph. It works a lot better if you break it down into specific polymorphs to turn into specific creatures and creatures. Plus just say all possessions just fall off when polymorphed.

Still, some interesting ideas hidden in there. Plus a "DUH!!" or two, like turning item creation into a ritual.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Omote]

Huh.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Coleston the Cavalier]

There's going to be a 4th Edition?
_________________


John Adams

[ZeornWarlock]

Not to bring down your 4rth ed. excitement on some of its parts, Treebore. However, it seems D&D will still be tons of useless stuff.

To be honest, if any player in my C&C game makes a ranged shot with whatever weapon. There is a good chance the enemy will pay attention without being a "PC feat". Moreover, smart players will get time to prepare great melee attacks or quick traps while the enemy tries to close in.
If a PC makes an impressive attack against the enemy, or strikes down a leader, there is a good chance its allies will step back and even flee altogether.
I cannot comment on the last ability, as I am not sure what it means.
That being said, pretty much all of this already takes part in C&C without it being a PC feat, ability, and what not.

Do not get me wrong, some of this stuff could be good inspiration for new character classes, or existing ones. However, the "feats/abilities" you mentioned above can already be covered by game logic or description. Not unique enough for a player to spend what ever they have to get them.

As for skills, my players prefer to be able to do almost everything with their attributes. Therefore, if a fighter wants to climb the castle's walls, in full plate, let it be. However, the rogue in leather will be able to climb it up and down 5 times before the fighter reaches the top lol. (I am referring to that because the fighter's plates were stuck on the wall and he hanged on that wall until the next morning when the guards took him down.)
I have played many RPGs and to be honest, my players prefer games with alignment because players who do not care for role-play still have to follow a certain path to some degree. It also good for special items, which affect alignment, weather good or ill.

Just my two cents.
ZW.
_________________
To understand some, you gotta make some!

[gideon_thorne]

ZeornWarlock wrote:
(I am referring to that because the fighter's plates were stuck on the wall and he hanged on that wall until the next morning when the guards took him down.)

HAHAHAHAHA! Thats hilarious!
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

ZeornWarlock wrote:
Not to bring down your 4rth ed. excitement on some of its parts, Treebore. However, it seems D&D will still be tons of useless stuff.

To be honest, if any player in my C&C game makes a ranged shot with whatever weapon. There is a good chance the enemy will pay attention without being a "PC feat". Moreover, smart players will get time to prepare great melee attacks or quick traps while the enemy tries to close in.
If a PC makes an impressive attack against the enemy, or strikes down a leader, there is a good chance its allies will step back and even flee altogether.
I cannot comment on the last ability, as I am not sure what it means.
That being said, pretty much all of this already takes part in C&C without it being a PC feat, ability, and what not.

Do not get me wrong, some of this stuff could be good inspiration for new character classes, or existing ones. However, the "feats/abilities" you mentioned above can already be covered by game logic or description. Not unique enough for a player to spend what ever they have to get them.

As for skills, my players prefer to be able to do almost everything with their attributes. Therefore, if a fighter wants to climb the castle's walls, in full plate, let it be. However, the rogue in leather will be able to climb it up and down 5 times before the fighter reaches the top lol. (I am referring to that because the fighter's plates were stuck on the wall and he hanged on that wall until the next morning when the guards took him down.)
I have played many RPGs and to be honest, my players prefer games with alignment because players who do not care for role-play still have to follow a certain path to some degree. It also good for special items, which affect alignment, weather good or ill.

Just my two cents.
ZW.

I am not saying I am going to love 4E, I highly doubt I'll even like it. However there are some cool sounding ideas in there, and I like ideas.

As for feats, I like to use them as ideas as to how the SIEGE engine can be used, maybe even eventually award as a PC ability.

I think I may also like the ideas for how they handle the higher level phases of the game. They may turn into something very useable for higher level play, in C&C or any other game.

Plus treating magic item making as being a "ritual" makes a heck of a lot more sense to me, so they may have some cool ritual descriptions for me to steal.

So I may be keeping an eye on 4E, but that doesn't mean I intend on ever playing it. Stealing from it looks to be for sure. Actually using it instead of C&C? No. I don't see that happening. I've become too spoiled with being able to make a game exactly what my players and I want it to be. Simple enough to stay intuitive is just too good to give up.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Julian Grimm]

The only things there I really like are the Alignment loss (FINALLY!!!!) And maybe the rituals if done right. The rest just leaves me bland.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[Dyne]

Some interesting ideas, but nothing interests me enough to pay much attention to 4e. The loss of alignments and spell schools is kinda disappointing to me, but I don't really care what they do anymore.

[Julian Grimm]

I would have kept spell schools but alignment IMNSHO, was a clunky mechanic after the Good/Evil axis was added. I prefer the Law/Chaos axis of BD&D and OD&D. That said, some things about more dynamic dungeons, points of light and the new philosophy on encounters do get some interest. Not enough to buy but enough to see how these ideas are implimented.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[Wolfram_Stout]

Hi,

I agree with Treebore on this one. I think 4ed will be a gold mine of good ideas. I think overall they are going to miss their goal of "simplifying" combat, but some of the individual ideas I love.

And yes, I know that you can do anything with the siege engine already, no need for feats/skills.....

But, as creative as I can be sometimes, I am not going to think of nifty tricks to try. So, having a game designer come up with them for me, so that I can then tinker with is great for me.

For example: I love the C&C bard. I am really liking some of the stuff from the 4ed peeks into the warlord. So, bam, I will allow Bards to try the "Feather me yon oaf" trick. On a successful Chr check the Bard grants a free ranged attack to an ally on a target of the Bard's choice (the ally can chose to disregard the bard if he doesn't want to take the free attack).

I would have never thought of that but I really like it.

Also, I like the concept of secondary effects for Paladin's smite ability. I don't much like the effect's they came up with, but again, it is a concept i like that I would not have come up with on my own.

Was this on topic? Crap, I don't think so. But I agree with Treebore, and think the ideas in the original post are pretty dang cool as well.

Wolfram

[JRR]

I think this is just more WoW crap and has no place in D&D.
_________________
You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

[Fat Dragon Games]

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
There's going to be a 4th Edition?

Nah...it's just a rumor.
_________________
Thomas A. Tullis

Fat Dragon Games
www.fatdragongames.com

Castles & Crusades...more D&D than D&D.

[rabindranath72]

Quote:
To be honest, if any player in my C&C game makes a ranged shot with whatever weapon. There is a good chance the enemy will pay attention without being a "PC feat". Moreover, smart players will get time to prepare great melee attacks or quick traps while the enemy tries to close in.

It should be just sensible roleplaying on the part of the DM
Set lance vs. charge? Use polearms?

Quote:
If a PC makes an impressive attack against the enemy, or strikes down a leader, there is a good chance its allies will step back and even flee altogether.

This rule existed since the times of classic D&D (morale anyone?).

Overall, it seems that my hopes for a streamlined and sensible approach to rulings are going to be dumped

[rabindranath72]

I have been reading some of the previews...characters heal themselves (?)

It is funny (depressing?) that they discussed the idea of putting the DM as an opponent! This would have been the final strike to kill the game. Luckily, they decided that due to the brand name of the game, it would have been better to keep the DM as storyteller. Just for the brand name, not because the game is supposed to be a roleplaying game
Gah!

[Fizz]

ZeornWarlock wrote:
To be honest, if any player in my C&C game makes a ranged shot with whatever weapon. There is a good chance the enemy will pay attention without being a "PC feat".

That being said, pretty much all of this already takes part in C&C without it being a PC feat, ability, and what not.

I think ZeornWarlock stated this quite nicely. This is the big problem i've had with a lot of feats ever since 3E first came out. Instead of defining what you can do, they define what everyone else can't do.

"I'm going to thrown a spear at the ogre and try to distract him."

"You can't, you don't have the feat."

"What? But throwing a spear is throwing a spear."

"It's only distracting if you have the feat, otherwise, it's just an attack."

AUGH!

The description above just seems like they're taking it to even further ridiculous extremes. To me, they just look like artificial ways of adding more crunch.

-Fizz

[Turanil]

Treebore wrote:
It still sounds overly complicated in a lot of ways

Overly complicated and overpowered too. Reading that post, it looked 4e will be a headache to run, and even play, and a lot more tactical than 3.5, a feature I already didn't like.

The only idea I may want to steal to implement as a houserule in C&C, are the wizard's "power words". But I don't need to read 4e to try to come up with a houserule that would implement the idea that wizards have per encounter powers to use besides spells.
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

[Danny F]

4E previews depress me. WOTC should re-name their new game Warlocks & Warlords because it is no longer D&D as far as I'm concerned. The spirit of D&D lives on in Castles & Crusades, though. That is why I'm looking forward to the Castle Keeper's Guide instead.

[Fizz]

Danny F wrote:
The spirit of D&D lives on in Castles & Crusades, though. That is why I'm looking forward to the Castle Keeper's Guide instead.

Aye, impeccably said.

-Fizz

[Brutorz Bill]

Wolfram_Stout wrote:
Hi,

For example: I love the C&C bard. I am really liking some of the stuff from the 4ed peeks into the warlord. So, bam, I will allow Bards to try the "Feather me yon oaf" trick. On a successful Chr check the Bard grants a free ranged attack to an ally on a target of the Bard's choice (the ally can chose to disregard the bard if he doesn't want to take the free attack).

Wolfram

Feather me yon Oaf! I likes it!

[JRR]

You can already do this in 3rd edition. Or any edition unless you have an idiot for a dm. 3rd edition actually has a mechanic for it (readying an action), although I don't think it's needed.

PC: Everybody take down the mage before he casts sleep!

PCS: Got it!

In a surprise encounter, they rise up and shoot at once. If not, they can either each individually shoot, or go on group initiative. Why do we need a rule singling out every possibility? That makes dming no fun.
_________________
You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

[JRR]

And this aggro mechanic is just stupid. The fighter yells at me and I HAVE to attack him? NEvermind that the wizard is about to immolate everyone in a fireball. I have to charge madly across a field of caltrops because he said something about my mother. And again, that STILL doesn't need a mechanic if you want to do it, it's called ROLE PLAYING. But I guess they took that out becauase it was so horribly broken in previous editions.
_________________
You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

[Fizz]

Wolfram_Stout wrote:
So, bam, I will allow Bards to try the "Feather me yon oaf" trick. On a successful Chr check the Bard grants a free ranged attack to an ally on a target of the Bard's choice (the ally can chose to disregard the bard if he doesn't want to take the free attack).

Maybe it's me, but i like having in-game justifications for special abilities. What is the bard doing to grant an extra attack? How does his ally suddenly have more time to do that?

Without in-game justfication, it's just playing with numbers to me. If i want to do that i'll go to the casino.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

JRR wrote:
And this aggro mechanic is just stupid. The fighter yells at me and I HAVE to attack him? NEvermind that the wizard is about to immolate everyone in a fireball. I have to charge madly across a field of caltrops because he said something about my mother. And again, that STILL doesn't need a mechanic if you want to do it, it's called ROLE PLAYING. But I guess they took that out becauase it was so horribly broken in previous editions.

Exactly. It's becoming a tactical battle game. They're just trying to find any and every permutation of the rules that they can, just like they did with MtG. There is no in-game reason for it- just throw out another way of manipulating numbers.

-Fizz

[DangerDwarf]

I just can't help but think that on a message board somewhere, someone will steal Peter's signature:

4e. The game so cool that even people who hate it can't stop talking about it.

[Fizz]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I just can't help but think that on a message board somewhere, someone will steal Peter's signature:

4e. The game so cool that even people who hate it can't stop talking about it.

Ey- more lamentation at the perversion of one of the great brand names that so many of us grew up on...

-Fizz

[slimykuotoan]

Yeah, 4E really is a video game now.

Especially with their online mapping system, in which you see your virtual character fighting pre-designed monsters.

No more imagination & visualizing; straight computer game effects.

[DangerDwarf]

Fizz wrote:
Ey- more lamentation at the perversion of one of the great brand names that so many of us grew up on...

-Fizz

I understand, but I got all my lamentations out on 3e.

4e is perverting 3e, not D&D in my opinion. Which I find amusing.

[Fizz]

DangerDwarf wrote:
4e is perverting 3e, not D&D in my opinion. Which I find amusing.

Yeah, that's not a bad way of characterizing it. I saw enough of old D&D in 3E that i could still play it though. I don't think i'll be able to say the same of 4E.

-Fizz

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I just can't help but think that on a message board somewhere, someone will steal Peter's signature:

4e. The game so cool that even people who hate it can't stop talking about it.

Ya well, that was deliberately aimed at another group pf pathologically obsessed types. Some who regard gaming as more than an amusing pastime or relaxing hobby;)
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Montague]

Treebore wrote:
I'm Batman: a ranged attack gets your opponent's attention and lures it towards you. You then jump up and deliver a follow-up attack.

The Rabble Yammer In Terror: A stinging blow to an enemy causes his allies to shirink back unwilling to get too close to you.

Go Ahead And Hit Me: A glare gives you an edge over foes.

Dear WOTC:

I am a game master. I have a brain. I am more than capable of determining the reactions of my monsters and NPC's with respect to PC actions. I will let you know if I want you to run my game for me.

Sincerely,

Montague.

(4th Edition)