They Charge for This?!?

yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:57 am

I went to mt FLGS today to check out the goods and happened to see a new D&D book. My curiosity was piqued so I picked it up, took a quick glance at the front and back covers, noted the price, and ascertained it was some kind of race and class book. I flipped through a couple of pages and "4E" caught my eye. I remember being a bit puzzled that a class and race book was already on the shelf for sale way ahead of the scheduled release so I looked a bit closer. Lo and behold! I saw another line stating that the mechanics were still in play testing and likely to change a lot before the official release. "What the heck is this thing then," I thought. I checked the table of contents then found the page on rangers then checked a few more items only to find out that this book I held in my hands that actually cost money was little more than a design diary!!!!
What a freakin' rip-off! It seems so absolutely crass and arrogant to publish such a piece of tripe let alone CHARGE for it! I am thoroughly disgusted, and not to mention insulted, by this base attempt at separating fools from their money.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:12 am

No comment.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:15 am

Some folks find such things terribly fascinating. More power to the purchaser if someone wants it.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:40 am

Have you seen the new Dungeon Survival Guide?

You might just want to pass on the FLGS for while, unless someone can vet the new releases for ya.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:26 am

Big deal.

Neither a large or red letter necessary topic.

Some folks like design notes. I'm one of them.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:55 am

Indeed. as little interest as I have in this product, having thumbed through it briefly today, I recognise that there is an audience for this sort of thing and it makes good business sense for Wizards to exploit that market.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:58 am

Matthew wrote:
...I recognise that there is an audience for this sort of thing and it makes good business sense for Wizards to exploit that market.

Hey, I hear scrap-booking is pretty hot. We even lost a game store hereabouts to scrap-booking [Eclectica nee Kevin's Attic]. Maybe WotC could figure an angle on that crowd.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:06 am

Harry Joy wrote:
Hey, I hear scrap-booking is pretty hot. We even lost a game store hereabouts to scrap-booking [Eclectica nee Kevin's Attic]. Maybe WotC could figure an angle on that crowd.

Sure! The Players Guide to Mongrelmen and other patchwork player races.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:12 am

Harry Joy wrote:
Hey, I hear scrap-booking is pretty hot. We even lost a game store hereabouts to scrap-booking [Eclectica nee Kevin's Attic]. Maybe WotC could figure an angle on that crowd.

What makes you think they aren't looking at that as a potential source of revenue? I'm pretty sure Magic Card or Pokemon Duels would be a good source of scrap book fodder. Hell, they could make it so you need to put the cards directly into the scrap books.

I'll never forget the advice from War Hammer Quest. Buy a model to represent your character. Should he die, retire the model and buy a new one...
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 am

I don't buy advertisements, just like I don't buy store catalogues.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:55 pm

I'm done with WotC. I was looking at the new SWSE book the other day. Starships of the Galaxy (or something), don't look at me like that ... I like spaceships, too. Anyway the SD Exterminator has a gun that you are to roll a d20 to determine the attacks it does in a round. Did anybody miss that?

d20 ... attacks ... per round.
Off of one gun. This gun is also available as an upgrade for other starships. An expensive one, but compared to other upgrades not that much.

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier on me to just give an area of effect and everybody in it takes a saving throw .. oh, wait. SWSE doesn't have saving throws because those are apparently too lame to put in a game. But rolling a Topsy's bucket of dice isn't too lame. Did WotC buy out Crystal Caste or GameScience when I wasn't looking?
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:07 pm

My initial reaction is "hey, don't buy it then". I understand your feelings on it and the product holds no interest for me at a 20 dollar price point but WoTC is a business and will sell what makes a profit for them. Better this I suppose than "Complete Nimrod" or Player's Handbook XXVI, pt. II, scene 8.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:31 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I'm done with WotC. I was looking at the new SWSE book the other day. Starships of the Galaxy (or something), don't look at me like that ... I like spaceships, too. Anyway the SD Exterminator has a gun that you are to roll a d20 to determine the attacks it does in a round. Did anybody miss that?

d20 ... attacks ... per round.
Off of one gun. This gun is also available as an upgrade for other starships. An expensive one, but compared to other upgrades not that much.

Wouldn't it have been a lot easier on me to just give an area of effect and everybody in it takes a saving throw .. oh, wait. SWSE doesn't have saving throws because those are apparently too lame to put in a game. But rolling a Topsy's bucket of dice isn't too lame. Did WotC buy out Crystal Caste or GameScience when I wasn't looking?

Some people have been known to suggest that Wizards purposefully 'sour the pot' in order to have something to "fix" via a new edition at a later date. Personally, I think that they just occasionally take their eye off the ball (especially when another big project is in development) and something that shouldn't have gotten published does. This is probably also a consequence of looming deadlines and inexperienced or untalented authors. It'll either get 'fixed' via errata or become part of a trend towards ever more powerful additional rules and supplements.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:07 pm

Oh, souring the pot is definite, I think. Still no SRD for 4e released for third party publishers. This will give WotC about 12 months of uncontested market share for the new edition, unless someone rushes something to print and we go back to the "boom" that was the initial d20 release (not likely to happen, I believe.) Its sheer marketing. Smart marketing. But crappy for the fans.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:40 pm

Um, yeah. No. Design theroy is fine and all, but to sell books just to keep the line without a break in new books is a bit recockulous. I wonder if these books will sour the tastes of those on the 4E fence or not. Probably not that much. Oh well.

-O
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yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:47 pm

Breakdaddy wrote:
My initial reaction is "hey, don't buy it then".

That was kind of the point. I refuse to buy such an obvious scam.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:48 pm

Hmmm, I guess I will comment...

Did you expect any less? WOTC has shown itself less of an RPG company and more of a brand management company. It's one of the reasons I haven't bought anything new by them in about 2 years. I browse intently but that is it.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:51 pm

Course, if one really doesn't like a given product, talking it up on web forums (even negatively), and giving it a bunch of free advertising, doesn't seem to me to be a very effective way of helping said product pass into obscurity.

There are at least 3 glaring examples of books, that have been made into film, where controversy and negativity have done nothing but increase sales numbers at an exponential rate.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:54 pm

Too true. And consider how much AD&D and Ozzy Osbourne did in sales with their respective controversies. I do appreciate a heads up on a product as do others but the initial post was a bit over reactive.
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Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:30 pm

yell0w_lantern wrote:
a design diary!!!!
What a freakin' rip-off! It seems so absolutely crass and arrogant to publish such a piece of tripe let alone CHARGE for it! I am thoroughly disgusted, and not to mention insulted, by this base attempt at separating fools from their money.

Welcome to 4e, the game of milking wallets from customers. This anecdote is but a confirmation of what was already obvious with this commercial endeavor (well, I mean, money-grab scam).
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:33 pm

Heh, because it is bad business sense to try to and make a profit.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:49 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Heh, because it is bad business sense to try to and make a profit.

No, its great for them to try and make money. Its just bad, in my opinion, for the consumer to be stupid enough to waste their money on it.

But I am crazy that way. I think people who run out and buy XBox 360, PS3, etc... aren't very smart either.

The only reason I own an XBox 360 is because of eBay and winning it for $186 with shipping. Plus we have the games we have (which are all highly well reviewed) because of eBay, and winning them for less than $20 each, with Assassin's Creed being the only exception at $43.00.

I still didn't like buying it all, but my kids wanted it real bad for Christmas, and because of eBay I was able to buy it all, in cash.

So it all comes down to what your buying habits/practices are. So to pay for an advertisement, with content admittedly very likely to change drastically before the final version comes out, just ranks real high on my bad money spending practices of the typical consumer meter.

But this is America, and we are encourage/pushed to waste our money every day.

But hey, I am guilty of it too. I went to Staples yesterday and paid $50 to print out a bunch of cardstock of Fat Dragon Games 3 D building products.

It would have been more, but the Staples computer couldn't even "see" the folders with the PDF's of their last two 3D products, including the one with the beholder in it. Which was very disappointing to me, but good for my wallet.

Oh well. I have plenty of stuff to play with until I think I can waste more money on such a thing again.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:58 pm

Yeah, there are many things out there that I find absurd to buy, but I don't rage against the company for selling the stuff (not that I've seen you "rage" Tree).

If a business can produce a product that a consumer will buy...go for it. If there is a market for something, make use of it.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:15 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, there are many things out there that I find absurd to buy, but I don't rage against the company for selling the stuff (not that I've seen you "rage" Tree).

If a business can produce a product that a consumer will buy...go for it. If there is a market for something, make use of it.

Oh, I can "rage", I just succeed in stopping myself, most of the time. Besides, I don't look at the OP's post as "rage". I think they are just voicing their disgust because not only is WOTC blatantly selling "advertising", but because they know many people will waste their money on it.

So since the OP, and I, classify such spending as "stupid", I think it is just anger that WOTC is taking advantage of that particular type of stupidity and feeling a bit sorry about it, and a bit frustrated that they can't protect their fellow gamers from that particular act of stupidity.

I'm sure the OP realizes we all do stupid things, given enough time, and just wishes they could convince everyone from making this particular stupid move.

Just to be clear, even though I am using the word stupid, I am not implying those who buy this WOTC product is stupid, just committing a single act of stupidity, which is something we all do. I do stupid things all too often, some of them have even made me bleed a good bit lately. Which is extra stupid for me since I am on blood thinners.

So please don't take my word useage as "your stupid", but as "we all do stupid things", and this is one of the more obvious one of those things.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:21 pm

Sounds like me and my thoughts on bottled water.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:53 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Sounds like me and my thoughts on bottled water.

Oh yeah, mine too. Especially now that I have a well that goes down 200 feet and pulls up water that hasn't seen the light of the sun for millions of years.

I can understand buying bottled water in Southern and central CA, their tap water is friggin NASTY! Very, very nasty.

But in places where their tap water tastes just fine? Yeah, we are on the same page.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:18 am

Mmmmmm bottled agua!!!!!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:53 am

One thing from the book that I find extremely interesting so far:
The parameters and basic game mechanics for 4th Edition player characters are not identical to the rules and powers used by the world's monsters and nonplayer characters

This is one of their design philosophies and is actually something that several of us on these boards have been saying forever.

Extremely good move if they keep this in mind.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:03 am

Quite funny since that was the case since the beginning of the game.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:06 am

Yeah, it's cool seeing them go back to it. 3e really changed that train of thought. Look at the sheer number of debates we've had on this board in regards to this topic.

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