Our experience with C&C last night.

Tropico · Post by **Tropico** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:01 pm

Well, as everyone saw in this other thread, I had some misgivings about C&C's stats system.

Well, last night we had the actual game and the whole thing rocked! It was very fun, very fast and very loose. The players took a little while to realize they could do pretty much anything (other than attack stuff) but once they did everything started flowing very nicely (the module itself didn't hurt at all either, but that's a topic for another forum..).

Anyways, my thing with the stats was totally unfounded and I found that for the most part it didn't even matter, and the players were only too glad to accept the Primes and the SIEGE system as the main driving force of the game, which was great.

We did have a little friction though, and it was from a part that I never would have guessed: The XP amounts for levelling. At the end when we looked at our game and our result we felt that it was just a bit much in the difference between the different classes to level.

Like, we have a Rogue who's just on the verge of levelling up and a Wizard who's not even halfway there. I had explained this in my head before as the power level of the Wizard being a stronger than the rogue's, so the rogue needed to 'catch up' as it were; in practice it was nothing like that, with the rogue dodging and weaving and getting in and out of trouble like crazy while the wizard had to stay in the back, cast magic missile and sleep until he ran out of spells, then wait til the party decided to rest.

It didn't help that his MM dished out a whole 1d4+1 of damage while the other guys were all doing 1d6, 1d8 and 2d4 plus STR bonus when they attacked. If anything, it felt like the wizard needed to do the catching-up, and badly, and yet every other character is now nearer to levelling up than him now. Altogether some very weird stuff, and I'm not sure what to do to fix it. I could tell that the Wizard's player was very underwhelmed by the situation, and so was I.

What I'm thinking of doing is shoring him up with some wands and scrolls so he can at least be more active and involved in the game, but that still doesn't solve the levelling thing.

Another weird thing was the Monk character, which pretty much felt like a naked fighter, with 11 AC and a regular weapon. But we all agreed that he would get a lot stronger with more levels, and he was in fact key when he succeeded in setting of a stunning attack against an owlbear and left it immobilized for 4 rounds. So we're cool with that.

Hmm lets see what else... well, as predicted the cleric with his Prime WIS was the Spot and Search god of the game, with him finding almost every single secret or clue while the others almost never did. Also the rogue failed to take INT as a Prime and this of course resulted in him having some real bad trouble both finding and disarming traps. But the players just seemed to accept this and not have problems with it.

Anyways, all in all the game was awesome and we for sure plan to continue it The wizard player might decide to switch classes (and I might encourage it because these guys just don't seem to turn to magic too much for their problem-solving) and I might mess with the XP levels a bit, but all in all we were very happy with it, and lots of really tense exciting moments and big laughs were had all night long. Thanks C&C.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:16 pm

One thing that might help with XP, and I don't know whether you factored it in or not, is to give XP for treasure found. 1gp=1xp.

Spot awards help as well for good role play and the like. ^_^
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:27 pm

As for the wizard, yeah he is tough to play with his slow XP's. However the tenacity is important, because with the saves being based on his level, etc... when he gets powerful enough to throw fireballs and such he will become a god. So think of it as "putting in your time" before becoming a mortal god like being.

I do agree the slowness of regaining spells can be a pain and I brought up ideas for letting them regain "spell energy" through simple rest rather than complete sleep, unless they want to change their spells memorized. This thread is in this rules forum.

Your point about the cleric is a BIG one, which is why, after about 3rd level, I let PC's make such checks as if their WIS is prime too. All adventurers learn to keep their eyes and ears open, its critical to survival. Thats my reasoning, and my players sure don't complain about it.

The big thing with C&C is don't be afraid to "work it", change this and that, experiment. Make it into something all of you can be happy with. That is perhaps C&C's biggest strength. The SIEGE engine really allows for you to mess with the rules and it still works very well, as long as you stick with the SIEGE mechanic as the core.

You can change the +6 value of Primes, you can change the default TN's of 12/18, you can even unify the XP chart again, pretty much whatever you want to do.

So make it the perfect game for yourselves.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:38 pm

Here is a link to the thread where I discuss the spell recovery aspects and possible solutions I came up with and others suggested:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:57 pm

Magic Users have the honour of sucking at Level 1, rocking at Level 6 and overshadowing their companions by level 9 or so.

The easiest thing to do is give them access to more Level 1 Spells, either via scrolls or simply by granting more earlier. In my campaigns, Level 1 Wizards usually have access to 3-6 Level 1 Spells [3 + Intelligence Modifier].

I usually use Magic Points, but if I didn't, I would use something like the below table:

Level

01 - 3|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

02 - 4|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

03 - 4|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

04 - 5|2|0|0|0|0|0|0|0

05 - 5|2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

06 - 5|3|1|0|0|0|0|0|0

07 - 6|3|1|1|0|0|0|0|0

08 - 6|3|2|1|0|0|0|0|0

09 - 6|3|2|1|1|0|0|0|0

10 - 6|3|2|1|1|0|0|0|0

11 - 6|3|2|1|1|1|0|0|0

12 - 6|3|2|1|1|1|0|0|0
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Tropico · Post by **Tropico** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:05 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. It's good to know other people have noticed the same things I have in their games. It's also good that C&C is so adaptabe that I'm sure we will manage to solve everything just fine I'm not sure what I will do yet, though I'm sure I will be reading that thread Treebore, thanks.

Also, for anyone who's into that sort of thing, I'm writing up a quick 'game report' of 51.5 over on the Goodman Games forum over here. Just an overview of the most interesting moments in the game, almost none of which would have been possible withouth C&C

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:18 pm

I agree with Tree about the wizard. Yeah, it sucks at the low levels but wait till the higher levels of the game. The wizard is a gawd of the battle-field.

In my high level game (they made it to level 20), the party felt like they where the wizard's henchmen. He owned.

As for the clerics being the spotters. I never had that particular issue. Thieves are supposed to be alert and I've always made sure that remained their forte. Other classes look around as well but in some instances, the thief might not need to roll or will have a far easier CL.

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:20 pm

My dad tells me that back in the murky depths of time (i.e., the mid- to late-70s), the standard approach to creating a magic-user was to start the character as a fighter, go up a few levels to give the character decent hit points, then switch class to magic-user. This gives the player something to do initially besides wait until the next day to get his magic missle spell back, toughens up the character so it can survive a vicious kobold attack, and the character should level up quickly as a magic-user since he'll be adventuring (and surviving) with a group of higher-level PCs taking on monsters worth more XPs.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:35 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
My dad tells me that back in the murky depths of time (i.e., the mid- to late-70s), the standard approach to creating a magic-user was to start the character as a fighter, go up a few levels to give the character decent hit points, then switch class to magic-user. This gives the player something to do initially besides wait until the next day to get his magic missle spell back, toughens up the character so it can survive a vicious kobold attack, and the character should level up quickly as a magic-user since he'll be adventuring (and surviving) with a group of higher-level PCs taking on monsters worth more XPs.

Personally I love thieves, so I started thief. Treebore is the only character where I started fighter and then went mage.

If you want pure melee madness become a fighter cleric. After doing Bless, Prayer, etc... and then entering a fight, UGLY!!
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:27 pm

Yeah, C&C is a fast 'blast'.

Primes are everything, which puts humans back in the driver seat IMHO.

Oh, and giving xp for treasure makes for happy players.

shane · Post by **shane** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:34 pm

Treebore wrote:
As for the wizard, yeah he is tough to play with his slow XP's. However the tenacity is important, because with the saves being based on his level, etc... when he gets powerful enough to throw fireballs and such he will become a god. So think of it as "putting in your time" before becoming a mortal god like being.

I give starting magic-users a 'tuned' magic staff in place of the ability to call a familiar. The staff lets wizards do some neat stuff at lower levels that allows them be much more involved with the game once their spells are cast - 20 magic bolts per day, some minor abilities based on the staff's construction, etc. The staff's powers scale a bit as the caster levels up, but the power-up is less and less so once a wizard comes into his own the staff doesn't add much to the mix. The magic bolt ability keeps the wizard from having to lug about 20 daggers or darts or whatever, which always seemed to me to be kind of dumb.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:54 am

The magic-user isn't a more powerful class at first level, but is a class with more power when the entire range of levels is considered. That's why his XP requirements are higher -- you're suffering weakness at the beginning for a bigger payoff, later. The power-curve is different. Personally, I like that approach, but I agree that magic-users' low-level weakness may be a bit too much. (That is, I approve of the overall concept, but think the execution could be tweaked, at bit.)

One way I address this is by allowing low-level magic-users to create scrolls, using the Holmes Basic D&D rules as a reference. As DM, I keep control by limiting the availability of components needed to make scrolls, and by enforcing the relative inconvenience and fragility of scrolls.

Related commentary:
On Scrolls
Spell Special Effects
Vancian Magic
Experience & Advancement
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:58 am

I might also suggest that, in order to give wizards a bit more utility, they ought to be given Identify, Read Magic, and Detect Magic as base class abilities. The trio together ought to work as a wide range tool for 'instinctive' magical understanding.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:23 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I might also suggest that, in order to give wizards a bit more utility, they ought to be given Identify, Read Magic, and Detect Magic as base class abilities. The trio together ought to work as a wide range tool for 'instinctive' magical understanding.

In our game, the CK and I decided right off the bat to make Read Magic a class ability. The others might be too much.

JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:47 am

Bah humbug to the lot of ya!

Weak wizards at low levels make high level casting all the more sweet.

If a magic-user wants to be able to throw lightning bolts and fire balls, he needs to keep himself alive in the early levels by being a great adviser to the other party members.

At levels 1-3 a magic-user's best friend is any PC in his party since they keep him alive.

At levels 9-12 a magic-user's best friend is any PC in his party since HE keeps them alive!

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:57 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
I might also suggest that, in order to give wizards a bit more utility, they ought to be given Identify, Read Magic, and Detect Magic as base class abilities. The trio together ought to work as a wide range tool for 'instinctive' magical understanding.

I Have Read and Detect magic as abilities but not Identify. Are they tied to stats as other abilities are?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:09 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I Have Read and Detect magic as abilities but not Identify. Are they tied to stats as other abilities are?

Thats the way I'd do it. Make it an 'instinctive' sense of the wizard where they can intuit the underlying structure of a spell effect. Challenge level is set by the level either of what they are trying to intuit (spell level) or the level of the person who created the effect.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:27 pm

JediOre wrote:
At levels 9-12 a magic-user's best friend is any PC in his party since HE keeps them alive!

And at level 13-20 the wizard is a rockstar with party members flinging themselves at his feet due to his pure aura of awesome.

I remember when we where playing at the high levels of C&C in Dragonlance I had a particularly large combat set up. The wizard won initiative and cast Time Stop (which he rolled a 4 on the duration +1 giving 5 rounds)

Then, several chain lightnings where cast as well as some other offensive spell. When the Time Stop expired, his spells went off and every last critter was left smoldering and dead. A huge "boss" type encounter and the wizard leveled everything before ANYONE ELSE even got a turn.

The rest of the players where awed.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:24 pm

Tropico wrote:
It didn't help that his MM dished out a whole 1d4+1 of damage while the other guys were all doing 1d6, 1d8 and 2d4 plus STR bonus when they attacked. If anything, it felt like the wizard needed to do the catching-up, and badly, and yet every other character is now nearer to levelling up than him now. Altogether some very weird stuff, and I'm not sure what to do to fix it. I could tell that the Wizard's player was very underwhelmed by the situation, and so was I.

...

What I'm thinking of doing is shoring him up with some wands and scrolls so he can at least be more active and involved in the game, but that still doesn't solve the levelling thing.

One thing we did over here was add the weapon mastery rules for characters. This is a (very) slightly modified version of the rules found in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia or the D&D Master Rules box set. Very briefly a wizard character would get four (?) weapon 'slots' that they can choose to learn at level one, and these need not be limited to daggers and slings. The illusionist character in my team learned X-bow proficiency and still shoots stuff (into level nine through eleven here) with it. Weapon proficiency slots cost money and training time after level one, and can get expensive for higher levels (but, they are worth it).

Another thing we did was rob D&D3 for all the alchemical items on the equipment lists. This makes available things like alchemist fire, thunderstones, and tanglefoot bags. Cheap little items that have a low level spell-like effect. The rogue in the team uses these mostly, but there is nothing stopping other people from using them. We also employ smoke bombs/bags. Copies the fog spell.

If your okay with it I could send you the game effects of a magic-user that has weapon proficiencies. Our illusionist (Becky) has a lot of fun tying tanglefoot bags or smoke bags to the bolts and shooting people with them. Or just shooting things in general. She is wierd.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:42 pm

Quote:
Level 1:

Training time/cost:none

Weapon skill:

Crossbow,light (basic) 1d6 dam. rng=60/120/180

Staff (basic) 1d6

Level 3:

Training time/cost:2wks/250gp

Crossbow,light (skilled) 1d6+2 dam, rng=60/120/180, +1AC vs. 1st attack with natural weapons, +2 to-hit vs humanoid

level 6:

Training time/cost:2wks/250gp

Staff (skilled) 1d6+2 dam., +1AC vs first two attacks of any kind, +2 to-hit

Level 9:

Training time/cost:4wks./500gp

Crossbow,light (expert) 1d6+4 dam, rng=75/130/180, +2AC vs. first two natural weapon attacks, +4 to-hit vs humanoid

Level 11:

Training time/cost:4wks./500gp

Staff (expert) 1d8+2 dam, +2AC vs first two attacks, +4 to-hit

This is what the weapon mastery progression would look like for a non-fighter (wizard) character who wants to specialize in staff and light X-bow. In our game here the bonus to-hit numbers are not used (and I spared y'all the deflect and stun bonus to those weapons as well already).
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Camazotz · Post by **Camazotz** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:00 pm

I've always awarded an experience bonus for the use of spells, generally 100 xp times the spell level, for each spell used in game. I've done this for a couple reasons, including the obvious one:

1. It adds some extra xp to wizardly advancement that other classes don't get.

2. It encourages wizards to use a wider range of spells whenever possible.

I often add extra xp in when the spells are used creatively or decisively in combat or tough spots, too. Like an acid arrow that is used to cut the rope on the hanging chandelier, or the light spell cast inside the drow's helm....you know, fun stuff!

Beyond that, people I know who love wizards readily suffer through, knowing that right around 5th level they start owning everyone else on the battlefield...

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:06 pm

The wizard player chose the wrong spell at first level. MM is good, yes, but its far less useful than sleep. Or, even charm person. MM is a spell best left for level 4, right before you get a very powerful 3rd level spell, and, right around the time you don't really need a 2nd level spell... depending on which ones you take. Also, a CK should be aware that wizards need to find scrolls. If you're stingy with them, expect your wizard players to get bored, and quickly, because they won't have a lot of options open to them.

But, that's just how I see it.

To make the low-level wizard more interesting, be more flexible with how the spells work. For example, allow MM to strike objects and not just people. Let prestidigitation mimic very weak 1st level spells (like grease which is not in C&C.) The more relaxed you are, the more creative the players get...

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:26 pm

I find it a lot simpler to scrub the 'spell book' and memorization business and let mages cast whatever spell they like limited to the number of times per day listed next to the characters level.

A mage can either fire the same spell several times, or a variety of different spells, or a combination of the two limited by the spell slots per day. A full 8 hours of sleep gets the 'batteries' recharged, as it were and they can go again.

Vancian methodology never made much sense to me.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:52 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I find it a lot simpler to scrub the 'spell book' and memorization business and let mages cast whatever spell they like limited to the number of times per day listed next to the characters level.

A mage can either fire the same spell several times, or a variety of different spells, or a combination of the two limited by the spell slots per day. A full 8 hours of sleep gets the 'batteries' recharged, as it were and they can go again.

Vancian methodology never made much sense to me.

I've allowed this to be done before. I found it more balanced than outright spell point systems. My only reluctance with using it is higher levels. Being high level and that flexible in spells cast does change the power dynamics.

I have been thinking of doing something similar that I used to do with Clerics. They can cast first through third level spells like that, because only 4th level spells and higher were granted by their god. So first to third level spells were "granted" by numerous deific proxies. Meaning spells were prayed for and granted "on the spot".

So I've been thinking, on and off, about coming up with some similar deal about wizardly spell casting.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:54 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
I find it a lot simpler to scrub the 'spell book' and memorization business and let mages cast whatever spell they like limited to the number of times per day listed next to the characters level.

A mage can either fire the same spell several times, or a variety of different spells, or a combination of the two limited by the spell slots per day. A full 8 hours of sleep gets the 'batteries' recharged, as it were and they can go again.

Vancian methodology never made much sense to me.

That's pretty much what I do. It's kinda like the sorceror from 3e.
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shane · Post by **shane** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:29 pm

How about giving Wizards some kind of variant of spontaneous casting? Maybe the have a small number of spells they specialize in and can do that sort of thing with?
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:33 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
That's pretty much what I do. It's kinda like the sorceror from 3e.

I do that as well; I use very low recharge rates, though.
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Tropico · Post by **Tropico** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:44 am

Well, we had a second game last night and it went smashingly well as well Thanks almost completely to the simplicity and speed of the rules. I'm loving it.

What I did for the wizard this time was to have a 3rd-level Wand of Magic Missiles (5 charges) a couple scrolls of sleep show up in a chest in the dungeon.

I also introduced a version of what gideon_thorne is saying: I basically told him 'forget preparing spells, you can cast whatever you want from your spellbook, up to 4 level 0's and 4 level 1's' then I let him choose 3 different level 0 and 3 level 1 spells to carry around in his spell book, and told him he gets to add a new spell every level. And that was that.

He was a lot more active in the game and actually was key in defeating a small Mirror Mimic who had the party's main fighter in its mouth and down to 2 hp So the player shone, the others cheered, everyone was happy, me most of all
The other one that's not shining very much right now is the monk, it seems to be another of the 'suck first, rule later' type of class. I will probably toss him some gauntlets of ogre power or something to up his melee effectiveness. Or he might switch classes because I just introduced the rest of the classes (We started playing with just Fighter, Rogue, Monk, Cleric, Wizard and Bard available) and he really likes the druid.

Now, I fully understand the point of view that Wizards/Monks should suck at first, then as they rise up in levels they slowly start to shine and later on they rule. That's fine, I have nothing against that in principle. It's a good and pleasing overall design within a campaign. Except, when it comes down to the actual game, I find my preferences for theory and practice diverge quite a bit.

For me, each game session is a game session in itself. I want everyone to shine or at least get the chance to shine and shine well during each individual session. I am a strong believer in "lead with the fun stuff" and "if you ain't laughin', you ain't playin'", which is to say, if all of us are not having fun -now-, something needs to be fixed somewhere.

Aside from which, these games we're playing, this is nothing like a formal campaign or anything of the sort. We're just a bunch of guys calling each other up and going 'hey you wanna play the dungeon tonight, come on over'.. we don't know how long it's gonna last, if we're even gonna have a next session, and certainly have no idea if we'll ever be getting to level 12-20 or close. So the fun needs to happen now
This is not a complaint or an argument in any way, just a small explanation so you guys can know where I'm coming from when I mention my worries about the wizard. As it stands, these two sessions we've had could not have gone better. All my worries are very minor.

I had one guy ask me to please NOT bring the game to the beach this next week on our family trip, because he KNOWS we won't even get outside the cabin if we have it with us, and he wants to get a tan (I'm bringing it anyway )

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:16 am

Great to hear things are going so well.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:19 am

Tropico wrote:
He was a lot more active in the game and actually was key in defeating a small Mirror Mimic who had the party's main fighter in its mouth and down to 2 hp So the player shone, the others cheered, everyone was happy, me most of all

A situation that clearly didn't 'reflect' well on the fighter.....

Bahahahaha!

Sorry... couldn't resist.
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Our experience with C&C last night.

Our experience with C&C last night.

Re: Our experience with C&C last night.

Re: Our experience with C&C last night.