Does C&C need a Revamp?

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:56 pm

I don't think any of the rules need revamping... the only changes I'd want to see are to the writing itself. I think sometimes that in an effort to sound "High Gygaxian" the writers have sort of tripped over their own shoelaces in the style and grammar department.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:00 am

I voted yes. there are a couple of areas that need cleaning up, clarification etc. there is NOTHING wrong with admitting when something needs to be tweaked to make a great system AWESOME.

Cheers,

J.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:34 pm

It took me a year to take the barely comprehensible OD&D rules, supplement them with "bolt-ins" from other editions of the rules, and clean up the prose of the whole kit and caboodle to make a baseline D&D rule set that I would want to use. While the C&C game mechanisms themselves don't need changing, I could tighten up the text in the Player's Handbook, though a lot of refinements have already been made to the text. I do think though that if the prose itself is cut down sufficiently to be readable without being confusing, the space saved could be used for whatever is desired, whether it be weapon descriptions, new spells, or even a new Peter Bradley artwork.
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Realmsbard · Post by **Realmsbard** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:25 am

I would like to see an index, a glossary, an alternative MAGIC system. Other than that its a fun run.

Thanks Trolls
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:00 am

I have to agree with something Traveller said here... and modify his thought. There is always some room for improvement, especially tightening up certain text areas. But instead of cutting text, why not simply add. Add more PB artwork (weapons and armor), weapon descriptions, armor descriptions, etc.

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:01 am

And more mules. Need the mules. And donkeys.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:04 am

Mules? You're right! Add them and all the travelling rules associated with mounts, stats, etc. I agree.

-O
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:40 am

[quote="serleran"]Item descriptions are done, and have been done. I made them available to everyone who wanted them. Not many did. Must not be that big a deal, then, eh?[/quote]

sure, if you happen to be watching whatever thread you posed it on (or should every new player read every thread ever posted), or you know, I'm sure there are 1 or 2 people who are not active on these message boards who might like that as well.

a low turnout from this forum is NOT indicative of the playing whole IMO.

Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:15 am

Heh, you just want me to give my stuff away, again. Did that, and still do, both through posts and direct emails. Those who want it have asked me for it, and they have received it, when I have the time and ability to do so (its pointless to ask me on a weekend because I won't have access to the files at that time; I think I have refused a few but I have my reasons for it, none of which I am indebted to disclose), but I can base my experience (almost a year of public access in numerous places [at least 4] and very little interest) on fact and say that there appears to be a very slim demand for such things.

Hell, it was the same way with Engineering Dungeons: I made a very public request for playtesters, but the product was called something else, and I even used it at the Lake Geneva Game Convention, and yet, none of them there even seemed to notice, or care. I received three responses. Of those, one gave feedback. I know I should take the hint (and stop creating anything)... but, some people (like Steve and Davis Chenault) seem to like what I offer, when I do, so I think I'll just exist in my little bubble.

Maybe I am hypersensitive and like to get feedback, and when I don't, I pull the material thinking it useless. That is my problem, but it impacts others, and that could be bad... so, I'll ask now: does anyone want all the stuff I used to offer back on the table, so to speak?

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:43 pm

serleran wrote:
(snip)

Maybe I am hypersensitive and like to get feedback, and when I don't, I pull the material thinking it useless. That is my problem, but it impacts others, and that could be bad... so, I'll ask now: does anyone want all the stuff I used to offer back on the table, so to speak?

Robert, I make use of or refer to many of the items you had previously made available. While I understand you not wanting to give something away for free when there's a good chance it would sell like ale in a dwarven pub, I do not think that a lack of attention given to your ideas means that they are bad ideas or that people are not interested. Some people don't want to say "gimme gimme!" or they don't have the time to playtest, no matter how good their intentions are.

So, that said, yes, I am interested in anything you put on the table.

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"I shun him."

-----

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-- E. Gary Gygax

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:20 pm

I think you are oversensative. Some gamers are lazy and don't feel like giving feedback since it doesn't always increase their post count. Or, they're just lazy and want free stuff. Oh yeah, some gamers are lazy.

-O

PS: Some gamers tend to be lazy.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:43 pm

When I put my stuff up on the web, it was with the purpose of giving people useful material they might not otherwise have had. I didn't do it for the accolades, although accolades don't go unappreciated here. I did it for the love of the game, and gaming in general.

The only time I've ever pulled anything off a site was at Dragonsfoot, after site administration over there pissed me off when they banned me for a week simply because I vented at a totally different site over their obscenely heavy-handed mismanagement of their posters. They could ban me right now and I wouldn't care. I haven't been there since that time, and the only way I'll return is when the site owner passes on the site to someone who actually has a clue dealing with people.

Just because people don't provide feedback regarding what you write doesn't mean that it's not appreciated or used, so I believe you should make all the stuff that won't be in the CKG available. Only this time, leave it up regardless of whether you get feedback or not.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:58 pm

Omote wrote:
I think you are oversensative. Some gamers are lazy and don't feel like giving feedback since it doesn't always increase their post count. Or, they're just lazy and want free stuff. Oh yeah, some gamers are lazy.

-O

PS: Some gamers tend to be lazy.

LOL!

I almost made a similar comment (only once, though) in my post above, but I got lazy and didn't feel like it.

Traveller wrote:
Just because people don't provide feedback regarding what you write doesn't mean that it's not appreciated or used, so I believe you should make all the stuff that won't be in the CKG available. Only this time, leave it up regardless of whether you get feedback or not.

I agree.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:02 pm

Haha! Zu is DA (lazy) MAN!

-O
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:36 pm

Selfportrait:

_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:20 pm

I am lazy, too. There are lots of things I wish people did so I didn't have to, like deal with all the people I have to talk to on the phone everyday... ack!!!

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:33 pm

Serleran, I was the recipient of some of your equipment write-up material and found it to be quite interesting - there were several items I had no idea about and your documents helped quite nicely. Thank you.

As to play testing, I think there are a lot of people who like to just read stuff, but have little time to game (or play in someone else's game, but don't run much themselves).

I guess if feedback is important to you, then everything you hand over to people should come with a little blurb explaining that you'd really like to hear what they thought of the material.

I'd love to see you put your material up for public access again.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:55 pm

Zudrak wrote:
Selfportrait:

Dude, when did you become a chair?
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:39 am

Heh. Reminds me of a scene from the radio episodes of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. After leaving the restaurant at the end of the universe, Arthur and company board a totally black ship. Once the ship reaches its destination, it wakes up. Eventually, everyone notices the chair that Arthur just sat on, the one with the two furry headrests.

Zaphod: "Hey you know that's a really neat chair? Coulda been made for me. It's got the two headrests, dig?"

Ford: "What those two great furry things? Ahh, they look ridiculous."

Trillian: "They look very uncomfortable. I prefer something with much longer arms..."

Arthur: "...but which is probably quite incapable of drinking coffee."

Zaphod: "Hey what did you say Earthman?"

Trillian: "Did you say headrests Zaphod? They look a lot like eyebrows to me.

Zaphod: "That chair is scratching its leg."

Trillian: "It's just been asleep all this time."

Ford: "Arthur, for god's sake get back here quick!"

Zaphod: "Yeah, stand up when you sit on the Admiral, primate."

Trillian: "It's moving! Look, It's starting to evolve!"

It evolves...

Ford: "Ewwww! Eat your heart out Galapagos Islands."

Zaphod: "G force you know what that is?"

Trillian: "Let me guess, horrible."

Zaphod: "It's a carbon copy of the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal or I'm a Vogon's Grandmother."

Arthur: "The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal? Is it safe?"

Ford: "Oh yes, it's perfectly safe. It's just us who are in trouble. If that's the admiral and he still wants his coffee, it ain't sponge fingers he's gonna dunk in it."

Arthur and company are attacked by other furniture that all has gotten annoyed at the intrusion. Ford and Arthur escape in an escape pod. Zaphod, Trillian, and Marvin don't get so lucky. They're eaten by the hyperevolved Zudrak (though Zaphod gets resurrected for Episode 7 of the radio episodes).
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NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:19 pm

Rhuvein wrote:
Dude, when did you become a chair?

Heh. Between your post and Traveller's I laughed out loud. When I evolve and shop at the Kwik-E Mart, I look like this:

_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:32 am

I would say fixes here and there are DEFINATELY needed.

It is hard enough trying to convince players to switch but typos, experience issues, and a general answer of well just make something up does not help when recruiting.

Let's face it. The core gaming base is no longer us old fogeys that remember when AD&D was the newest version.

Most 'experienced' gamers today have never played the original game and thus do not have 'that old school feel' as a proper reference.

To those players the typos and black and white artwork may appear quaint at best.
I wish to see skills and multiclassing in the core rules.

Critical hits should be in CKG also.

I also think the experience table needs a fixin. I am forced to use my own abstract system.

The rules may be designed for house ruling, yet they should be complete enough not to need them for consistency.

We are wanting a complete package yet open for house rules.

In today's market the crunchy bits of some game systems are no longer bells and whistles. They are a staple food.

Adding dimension to the characters is in everyone's interest, both designers and players.