Cleric - Spot and Search GOD

[shane]

serleran wrote:
Wouldn't know about Exalted. That's a White Wolf game, right? I stopped looking at them in 1998. All the games were, essentially, the same: some mysterious group of supernatural beings riddled with angst and impending doom vs humans and possibly some other supernatural group riddled with angst and impending doom.

[hijack]

Exalted is remarkably angst free! Supernatural beings abound, however.

I don't like the World of Angst games, either. It took some convincing to get me to agree to give Exalted a shot, but I'm glad I did. For one, the GM was really good. We played for two years and it was, by far, the best and most fun bundle of role playing I've done yet.

[/hijack]
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::: Shane

::: Rational thought, not superstition

[shane]

Fiffergrund wrote:
Quite frankly, your DM sucked.

Yes, I believe a spirited discussion concerning this very idea soon followed.
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::: Shane

::: Rational thought, not superstition

[gideon_thorne]

shane wrote:
Ok, but how to handle a smooth talking character who could talk the queen into bed, but who is run by a player who couldn't talk himself out of a paper bag? How do you guys handle that sort of thing?

By letting the player explain what he's attempting to do, which is not necessarily actually using all the smooth talking lines, but instead laying out the methodology of how.

Then roll a check. Socially awkward folks don't have to act out their characters if they feel uncomfortable doing so, they can just give a rough idea of the intended actions.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

Honestly, all this debate brings forth the suggestion that a closer look at the Wisdom check description on page 111 might be advised.

Quote:
"In the end, the ultimate determination of whether to allow a wisdom check or not lies in those circumstances where the fictional characters' knowledge and experience would exceed the players personal knowledge. The characters background and experiences play an important role in this."

And so forth...
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[shane]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Honestly, all this debate brings forth the suggestion that a closer look at the Wisdom check description on page 111 might be advised.

And so forth...

Alas, my PHB hasn't arrived yet.
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::: Shane

::: Rational thought, not superstition

[serleran]

Hehe! Love that mistake in the wording, as it implies a "roll" and not a "role." That's classic.

[Breakdaddy]

shane wrote:
I sure wish my C&C xmas stuff gets in soon so I can start tinkering.

Is it all that different in the PHB than in the collecter's set?

The SIEGE mechanic remains about the same as do most of the base mechanics. The encumbrance system is tweaked and of course the class, race, and spell lists are greatly expanded. Youll also find new poison rules in the 3rd printing of the PHB.

[jaybird216]

CharlieRock wrote:
What stat is smelling things? Con?

I try to avoid smelling things at a Con.
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Jason Braun
Art Monkey for Hire
Three-Headed Troll Art Wurks

[Omote]

Man, Fiffergrund really hit the nail on the head for this discussion. There simply doesn't need to be a game mechanic for MOST situations in a C&C game, as the game is about role-playing, story-telling, and fellowship. This alone would be reasons for not including such mechanics in a game like this.

Spot and search GODS are the reason why 3E is a poor RPG, and for it to spill into C&C like this grates on me... Not trying to start THAT debate though. I'm just saying.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[shane]

I've been thinking about this all day and I've come to the conclusion that I think I've forgotten how to role play. Too much time gone by, way, way too much working on and focusing on rules. I think I have a hard time relating to a game without the rules-tinted glasses. I seem to do ok as a player, but it all seems to get warped when I put the DM hat on.
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::: Shane

::: Rational thought, not superstition

[Traveller]

Honestly, thinking is where you're having a problem. That's not intended as an insult, but a simple statement. One of d20's biggest problems is that it basically removes the human from the equation, resulting in a "roll the dice, move the mice, and take the other guy's man" mentality. d20's other big problem is its reliance on a rule for situations that under older and better rule sets could be handled with simple role play.

But, you've found Castles & Crusades, and you have an opportunity to rediscover what d20 has stolen from you: the ability to truly role play. Castles & Crusades is much more enjoyable to referee than d20, because it has less prep time involved, and simply has fewer rules to monkey with. Don't beat yourself up too much, as I'm sure many of the d20 players that are on this forum ran into the same issues you did before they recalled that the game doesn't need rules to replace role play.
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[Zudrak]

Traveller wrote:
Honestly, thinking is where you're having a problem. That's not intended as an insult, but a simple statement. One of d20's biggest problems is that it basically removes the human from the equation, resulting in a "roll the dice, move the mice, and take the other guy's man" mentality. d20's other big problem is its reliance on a rule for situations that under older and better rule sets could be handled with simple role play.

But, you've found Castles & Crusades, and you have an opportunity to rediscover what d20 has stolen from you: the ability to truly role play. Castles & Crusades is much more enjoyable to referee than d20, because it has less prep time involved, and simply has fewer rules to monkey with. Don't beat yourself up too much, as I'm sure many of the d20 players that are on this forum ran into the same issues you did before they recalled that the game doesn't need rules to replace role play.

I agree with both Traveller here and Fiff above. I am finding the biggest challenge as CK is removing the leaven of d20 from my C&C loaf, if I may use a baking/biblical analogy to make my point. The fact that I took a 10-year hiatus from gaming is hurting my experience, as I was playing 1e AD&D in 1990 when I stopped and started up with 3e in 2000. I keep reading and re-reading the 1e books to re-capture the spirit of the gaming experience that OD&D, BD&D, OAD&D, and C&C want to exude.
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AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

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"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[Omote]

Agreed. The mechanic-heavy mentality of d20 is hard to get away from especially if you move right from d20 to C&C. To this day, I run campaigns for both systems, and have cross over players in both. I still run into these problems with players, and even myself going back to d20 for rules, rules, rules. It takes a while, but with C&C you really can move away from the heavy mechanics of d20.

Think about how you played earlier versions of D&D (if you did at all). You didn't need all of those rules back then to play the game, why heavens, do you need them now?

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Zudrak]

Omote wrote:
Agreed. The mechanic-heavy mentality of d20 is hard to get away from especially if you move right from d20 to C&C. To this day, I run campaigns for both systems, and have cross over players in both. I still run into these problems with players, and even myself going back to d20 for rules, rules, rules. It takes a while, but with C&C you really can move away from the heavy mechanics of d20.


Think about how you played earlier versions of D&D (if you did at all). You didn't need all of those rules back then to play the game, why heavens, do you need them now?

-O

That's what I've been trying to answer since I started encountering frustration with 3e in 2001 or so, when the higher levelled PC's and their addies were driving me up a wall with the mechanics. Thanks for posting that -- it helps me look at it another way and help sort the chaff from the wheat.

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AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

[shane]

It amounts to the same thing, but I'm not really a d20-er. I've hardly played d20 at all, actually. I do, however, have a long history with skill based games and I have a tendency to focus on rules and game design.
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::: Shane

::: Rational thought, not superstition

[Breakdaddy]

Omote wrote:
Agreed. The mechanic-heavy mentality of d20 is hard to get away from especially if you move right from d20 to C&C. To this day, I run campaigns for both systems, and have cross over players in both. I still run into these problems with players, and even myself going back to d20 for rules, rules, rules. It takes a while, but with C&C you really can move away from the heavy mechanics of d20.

Think about how you played earlier versions of D&D (if you did at all). You didn't need all of those rules back then to play the game, why heavens, do you need them now?

-O

Lies! Rules are what make the Earth spin on its wonderful axis! You are WRONG, sir. Wrong wrong wrong! I know it's true because WoTC told me so!

[Omote]

And Shane, there is never a problem with that. For C&Cers and old-school D&Ders rules heavy was never an advantage to the game. Being a gamer, I do like to see GOOD rulesets, even rulesets with lots of mechanics are good, but for different reasons.

I think many of the problems with d20 don't stem from the rules themselves so much as from the character building aspect. In that I mean when players build characters for d20, being very knowlegeable in the rules is a must. And if during play that rules arn't followed, you one would feel cheated that he did all of that work with the rules not to use them.

With C&C, these types of rules arn't needed as, in my estimation, C&C is not the same type of RPG as d20 D&D. Two completely different games within the classic fantasy genre.

But, we all know this and still we talk about it. I guess that says that we are passionate for the games we love... and that's a good thing.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Matthew]

Indeed. It's 'character building resources' that most seperates D20 from it's predecessors. That's not to say that AD&D was without it's character building options; the increasing use of Weapon Proficiencies, Non Weapon Proficiencies and finally the appearance of the Player's Option books are all forerunners of D20, which simply built off a streamlined version of that concept.

I think that once you give players significant choices that are not equal, you're encouraging a meta game aspect that can be fun, but not necessarily for everyone.

If I want to give an Orc +1 to Hit, I simply do; I don't increase his Hit Die or look around for the appropriate Feat, Class or Prestige Class, etc... it is simply done. In the case of Player Characters, there is a formula in play that is supposed to govern the power level of the character, a form of resource management. If the investment of those resources varies in terms of resulting power level (as it does in D20) then you end up with a drive towards 'optimisation'.

That's my opinion, anyway.
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Fiffergrund]

RISE UP AND WALK AGAIN! CAUSE STRIFE AND MAYHEM.

[Grandpa]

Tropico wrote:
Hmm lets see what else... well, as predicted the cleric with his Prime WIS was the Spot and Search god of the game, with him finding almost every single secret or clue while the others almost never did. Also the rogue failed to take INT as a Prime and this of course resulted in him having some real bad trouble both finding and disarming traps. But the players just seemed to accept this and not have problems with it.

In C&C there's no listed generic Search or Spot skill tied to Wisdom.

In C&C we have find secret door, a rogue skill at 15th level and elves get a +2 on rolls and it is wisdom based. Only elves & 15th level rogues can attempt.

For rogues I just let them have find secret doors at a +6 (as if prime) when 15 level, and of course adding level as a class skill. Excepting elves no one else can attempt and elves don't add level unless a 15th level rouge.

Spot & search aren't class skills and are treated as per siege rules but I use Int.

Listen is a class skill but I don't tie it to an attribute. If your class doesn't have it you can try, with no level bonus and it is never as good as the class skill if successful.

[Fizz]

So Fiffergrund, are you just performing thread resurrections to up your post count, or are you just a chaotic-neutral troublemaker?

I am with Grandpa regarding searching or sensing skill. Tying them to wisdom is a very 3E thing. When such a search is performed, i base it on the situation. It might be an Int check, or a Wis check, or maybe even Dex or Str; it all depends on the nature of the search and the hidden target. And sometimes i just like the 1st Ed version: 1 in 6 chance, maybe 2 in 6 for some classes.

However, it's "rogue", not "rouge". (Sorry, pet peeve.) Or better yet, "thief".

-Fizz

[Go0gleplex]

Search for me requires the smarts to think of where to possibly look for things hidden (or, in the case of a recalcitrant teen, to think about lifting things out of the way to maybe find their MP3 player or what.)

Spot...well...I really don't like that term for what is really perception; that is, knowing something is outta whack in the surroundings or just a bad vibe in the ol' gut that the rotary impeller is about to be really fouled. I can see tying that to WIS as a default...but it really is more of a conglomeration of all the Mental Attributes. KISS principle says let it rest with WIS...OCD says use an average of the Mental Att's and suck up the minor math involved. lol Listen tends to fall under the same thing; an amalgamation of the mental attributes. Smart and wise enough to be quiet and listen with willpower to focus on what you're trying to hear...not Bob whining about messing up his ONE JOB yet AGAIN in the background.

I totally get instances being purely situational and I tend to reflect that when setting target numbers and/or challenge levels either in writing the adventure or running the game. Frankly, these are probably some of the more problematic character actions in the game due to being classified as skills outside of Class Abilities, both in D&D and C&C.

[Fiffergrund]

So Fiffergrund, are you just performing thread resurrections to up your post count, or are you just a chaotic-neutral troublemaker?

Oh definitely the latter, but my alignment changes with my mood. I'm just reminiscing, that's all. Most of the threads should stay exactly where they are...but some topics are still being talked about. Not to mention that the Discord experience leaves me a little....wanting for substance.

So part of this is to make a point about value. There's real history here that doesn't go away when it scrolls off the screen.

[JShan101]

I use WIS for noticing things, and INT for active searches. The difference between having a "good eye" versus knowing what you're looking for.

And going waaay back to the original post, I wouldn't let Eagle-eye the Cleric add level to the check because traps ain't his class' thang. Any well-hidden trap should have a decent CL attached to it, lowering his chances in comparison to the thief.

Beyond that, I also ascribe to the "if you tell me specifically what you're looking for and it's there....ta da! You found it" method.

[Bifford]

I love forums, so thread resurrection is fine by me. Have at it!

Regarding skills etc in C&C, it's the one thing I find frustrating. Characters start at level 1, and stay at 1 or 2 for ages (A0 Rising Knight is a level 1, possibly level 2 game. It took 8 months of play to complete. A1 is a 'top of level 1' into level 2 game) and it would take years of play to get to 15+ and "the good stuff".

A normal person on the street can "spot hidden" and "search". It's all a tad stupid.

[Grandpa]

A normal person on the street can "spot hidden" and "search". It's all a tad stupid.

Um, nope. I remember a class in college (a criminal law class) and a detective was lecturing that day. He was using a chalkboard so we were eyes front. All of a sudden he stopped and told us to write down the description of the person that entered the room through the door, walked in front of everyone, took a book off his desk and walked BACK across the front and out the door. Only 2 people out of 35 said they saw him and only one could imperfectly describe.

I investigated police officers for a state AG dept. and you'd be shocked how poorly people are at "spotting" and searching.

[Fizz]

Um, nope. I remember a class in college (a criminal law class) and a detective was lecturing that day. He was using a chalkboard so we were eyes front. All of a sudden he stopped and told us to write down the description of the person that entered the room through the door, walked in front of everyone, took a book off his desk and walked BACK across the front and out the door. Only 2 people out of 35 said they saw him and only one could imperfectly describe.
I investigated police officers for a state AG dept. and you'd be shocked how poorly people are at "spotting" and searching.

I can believe that. There was (is?) a tv show called Brain Games. Many episodes highlighted how easy it is for the brain to be distracted and miss things one would think would be obvious. A particular example involving double-dutch jumpers comes to mind... heh.
Ah, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiEzf3J4iFk


-Fizz

[JediOre]

My players are getting on board with the old school approach of discussing what their PCs are doing, but if pressed for time or everyone is tired, we roll to find secret doors, using the wisdom check. I let the rogue add his level to the roll.

[maximus]

Spot and Search are 3E isms. I use a Perception check (thanks @Rigon). Bonuses are derived from mental abilities plus certain class abilities rolled against a 15. I also have the party describe what they are doing beyond the standard "I check for traps". Works pretty well.

[Grandpa]

I can believe that. There was (is?) a tv show called Brain Games. Many episodes highlighted how easy it is for the brain to be distracted and miss things one would think would be obvious. A particular example involving double-dutch jumpers comes to mind... heh.
Ah, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiEzf3J4iFk


-Fizz

Exactly! I was shocked when I missed that classroom exercise at age 18 and being a good hunter and stalker. But no class skill nor level.