Forgotten Realms 100 years later...

Lucifer_Draconus · Post by **Lucifer_Draconus** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:36 pm

For those fans of Forgotten Realms,what are your thoughts to what WotC are doing to FR? I don't like it at all.I like all the Gods & the RIFTing in of Alien environements/races to the Realms sucks.Who needs bbloody Dragon Born,they could've had them come from another land mass on Toril.

Iam Who Iam

Note: I left out the bash WotC/Hasbro/4rthEd. stuff Ain't I a nice guy LOL
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NulSyn · Post by **NulSyn** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:18 pm

I already have all the ad&d FR stuff that I could ever want. So they needed to change it somehow to make it worth checking out and/or buying.

Sounds like it could be interesting.
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Titania Lefey · Post by **Titania Lefey** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:57 pm

I love the original setting too much to want it to change.

Besides, we already have a 100 years later thing in our home campaign. All of the events being caused and or influenced by the multitudes of campaigns in the setting.
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NulSyn · Post by **NulSyn** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:11 am

Titania Lefey wrote:
I love the original setting too much to want it to change.

i agree in that I love the original setting, but I don;t want regurgitated same ole same ole either. Anything new will not change my ad&d boxed sets and books. If the 4th edition stuff was regurgitated classic for 4th, I wouldn't want it.

However if its something brand new or a new twist....such as a century later, its worth a buy or at least a see if I want to buy.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:34 am

Pour moi, I found FR too 'human centered', in terms of pantheon, etc.

And the setting itself was alittle over developed for my taste.

I did find the novels awesome overall however...except for the Harper stuff.

Lucifer_Draconus · Post by **Lucifer_Draconus** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:17 am

But 100 years!!!! Why not 10 or even 25 years..but 100??? That & the Rifting in alien environs just to introduce new core races.BS to me.Soon it won't feel like FR anymore.

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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:39 am

It's gonna blow the novel line all to hell. All my favorite characters will be dead. I like Bruenor, the Boulder Shoulder brothers, and Regis, now they'll all be gone, but that damned dark elf will still be around. I may be the only person who scanned the Drivelit parts just to get to the parts about Bruenor in Salvatore's books.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:56 pm

In my opinion, it is a mark of lack of creativity to have to "blow everything up" in order to have a fresh view on things. FR has done this before, and it was not that great... so, let's hope, since this is going to happen, that is not the second Time of Diarrhea.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:08 pm

Divided. On one hand I haven't liked what has happened in the realms since about 3e. On the other the few things I have heard have oddly interested me. The one thing I want to see rid of is the whole 'Orcs are people too' mindset but that is a 3e thing not just an FR thing. In the end I may pick up the new Fr setting book or just flip through it to see what has exactly changed.
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Titania Lefey · Post by **Titania Lefey** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:33 pm

NulSyn wrote:
i agree in that I love the original setting, but I don;t want regurgitated same ole same ole either. Anything new will not change my ad&d boxed sets and books. If the 4th edition stuff was regurgitated classic for 4th, I wouldn't want it.

However if its something brand new or a new twist....such as a century later, its worth a buy or at least a see if I want to buy.

Titania Lefey :

Quote:
Besides, we already have a 100 years later thing in our home campaign. All of the events being caused and or influenced by the multitudes of campaigns in the setting

Im not saying I want the sam old same old... just I want the basis to be old forgotten relams with it adjusted by the players experiences in previous campaigns. This is only in our home campaign anyway.

I wouldn't mind it so much if they said this was a "supplement to plant somewhere in the world" or something like that... but aliens? As part of ALL Forgotton Realms?
I am willing to try new things and I am not against other people likeing the setting. It is just not to my tastes...

Titania
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:54 am

I love the early Realms stuff and to be honest, I would have rather them try and focus on a new campaign setting to go along with the new edition. I never saw a point to the Time of Troubles material but I didn't mind it either. I don't see why the need to make massive modifications as a reason to integrate the new stuff in the setting in such a 'bad' or 'uncreative' way.

Seriously though... a new base setting... a simple gazetteer to get you started and put the responsibility back into the DM's hands to create a campaign as opposed to delivering on some sort of cheap tin platter.

M
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cuchulainkevin · Post by **cuchulainkevin** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:56 am

I'm a fan of non-advanced timeline Greyhawk, so blowing up the canon for FR sucks imo.

I'd rather buy a completely new setting that deal with changes to an old setting.

Then again, I also think they should have kept D&D 1E and just updated the look of the rulebooks every few years.

I sure hope the Trolls never get on the "new edition every 3 years" treadmill. As it is I buy a new PHB every printing to support the fact that they've not "updated" the rules for newer "kewler" rules.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:48 am

I'm sure TLG won't go that route. However I'm not a dead set hardliner that no new edition will never be needed. Hell, Gygax saw that AD&D was going to need a new edition before Williams and Co. took over. But then again I look at other games I play with my family and realize I'm playing Sorry or other games with the same rules I had when I was a kid.

That said I think in it's initial greybox run and supplements FR was perfect. However the additions of meta-plots and such have detracted from the setting overall. Also it has spread to other settings making it near impossible for any setting to stay static for any length of time. (As far as print goes) I hope Airdhe and Yggsburgh as well as the Haunted Highlands steer clear of this and stay the same 10 years from now as they are now. And I hope it proves successful enough that we can rethink settings away from meta-plots and the need for 'realism'.

Oops sorry about going off track there.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:28 am

I was never a fan of FR, but I did like the 3E books for the setting. However, hearing what they are doing sounds pretty lame. I mean, really lame, especially since the only reason they are doing it is to make the game more 4E.

-O
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Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:55 am

WotC may have some good ideas, but I'm not fond of how they're going about it. The time jump, terraforming, and rules change reminds me a bit too much of when the Fifth Age was introduced for Dragonlance. That did nothing but split the fan base and drive some fans off.

I know Maztica wasn't the most popular, but the idea of totally replacing it with a new continent is a bit ludicrous. Now they say that the new Returned Abeir continent (or whatever it is called) subsumes Maztica. Probably, it wipes the old continent out. I would hope, though, that it would somehow incorporate some Maztica elements.

For example, what if the ages-old struggle between dragonborn and tieflings is actually between dragonborn eagle knights of Qotal and tiefling jaguar knights of Zaltec? Dragonborn plumaweavers and tiefling hishnashapers?

Anyhoo...

In my mind, change in a setting should be an evolution. You shouldn't change a bunch of stuff, then hand it back to players expecting them to accept it. Now maybe some of the changes will rocketh mightily. Or, maybe they will sucketh mightily. I don't know, personally. What I do know, though, is that the way the changes are being made do not sit right with me. If you want to add a new continent, great, but don't destroy an old one in the process.

*sigh*

I should take some time this week to break out my old 2e Forgotten Realms books...
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:30 am

The only FR stuff I loved is the original 1e grey box, up to and including the campaign modules 1 through 10 or so. After that, it becomes a descent into munchkindom...and the Times of Trouble really destroyed the setting IMO.

Besides, the grey box as it stands can be used "as is" with C&C without practically any changes. I am so tempted of running a C&C FR campaign...

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:42 pm

I too am a fan of the old Forgotten Realms. I was not happy when they dumped in the Time of Troubles. I used to run an old FR campaign (both in 2nd Ed D&D and then in HARP) which left King Azoun alive and the realms intact.

From what I have been reading, I do not like where WotC is going with the 4th Edition, or where they are heading with the Realms. Looks like I will probably stay with Greyhawk and Yggsburg for my C&C campaign.
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SpencerWright · Post by **SpencerWright** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:06 pm

To WOTC:

Please stop. Please stop. Please stop. Please?

Spencer
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:21 pm

They need those 100 years to explain how dragonborn and tieflings became a race... and why gnomes and half-orcs became all monstrous. Heh. They need to destroy the world so they can justify their changes to it.

It would have been easier to just create a new world, with ties to the old. Like... an invasion. Hmm...

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:59 pm

The thing is I can't remember any other edition that did something this drastic to make the setting fit the edition. Sure there was the Greyhawk Wars and the ToT but that was minor compared to this shift.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:04 pm

Console games do it all the time.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:07 pm

Console is a complete different story. Hell the only Console RPG I like anymore is the Zelda series since it actually tries to stay somewhat medieval. Unlike that one fantasy series that thinks sci-fi and fantasy are the same thing .
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:17 pm

Heh. Dragonlance underwent a cataclysm to have a new feel for the game. I believe it was fifth age, or something. I don't recall. DL is not my thing, but I am pretty sure there have been a few major events. Oh... and Ravenloft as well. And, if you count Wrath of the Immortals, you get retro-Classic RC. Hell, even Dark Sun underwent a revision... maybe not a world-blowing one, but it certainly did change some between release 1 and release 2. And, really thinking about it, the "oriental adventures" setting went through the most changes... I mean, it started off as its own thing and then got forged into FR and then altered again, and again, and again... each time with new rules and new places.

It would be harder to say "which D&D world hasn't undergone some major revision to fit some concept of a 'new system?'"

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:21 pm

I've got mixed feelings on it. On one hand, a dramatic shakeup could be interesting. On the other hand, doing such a drastic re-boot smacks of two things. One, that their writers couldn't come up with anything without a clean slate. Two, financial gain - if a person wants the new FR, they will have to start all over from scratch. And keeping Drizz't, who of almost all the NPCs should've been the first on the cutting block, smacks of a marketing move more than anything else. For pete's sake, make a new munchkin for people to imitate if you have to!

But all that doesn't mean that the end product won't be good. But what it most likely won't be is the FR that everyone that plays it now, or played it before, loves.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:35 pm

I'm not that concerned about Drizz't. I actually like the character except for this recent book (Of which only the intro I have read online) where he seems to go soft on Orcs playing into WOTC's Rainbow connection for all enemy races. (Orcs are not people too Dammit!)
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Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:57 pm

serleran wrote:
Heh. Dragonlance underwent a cataclysm to have a new feel for the game. I believe it was fifth age, or something. I don't recall. DL is not my thing, but I am pretty sure there have been a few major events.

Dragonlance did a 30-year time jump and had a so-called "Second Cataclysm" (hate that term). Thing is, Dragons of Summer Flame was meant to be the end of Dragonlance. Then the Fifth Age continued the setting on after that, with a 30-year time jump, massive demigod-level dragons, a terraformed landscape, one moon instead of three (blech!), new magic, and no gods. The SAGA system replaced the AD&D system. So all of that led to a split in the fanbase.

So here we are again with rules changes, time jumps, terraforming, and changes in magic. I raised my concerns with Rich Baker, but he's pretty insistent that this won't be the same fiasco as the Fifth Age was. He thinks they can do it better this time, and he says the difference is that the system is still D&D, even if it is a new edition.

I'd like to see what they come up with. It may be quite good, but honestly, I'm very leery. I don't think WotC has learned from the mistakes of the past, and I think they need to learn about how to slowly and naturally develop a setting.

We'll see. I'll give it a looksee, but honestly, I prefer my Dragonlance.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:02 pm

I'm wondering if WOTC has some plans in the future to start the DL campaign setting up again with 4E. Though, I probably wouldn't care that much as the MWP Dragonlance Products were generally some kind of goodness. The 3E DL books got so much that I don't think there is a need for DL4.0

-O
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NulSyn · Post by **NulSyn** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:16 pm

I actually liked old Dragonlance and 5th age Dragonlance.

I guess I was a rare breed.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:44 pm

NulSyn wrote:
I actually liked old Dragonlance and 5th age Dragonlance.

I guess I was a rare breed.

I liked the SAGA system, but did not like how the campaign went on. The events depicted in the SAGA adventures, based on J. Rabe's novels, are not that interesting, and introduce so many alien elements to dragonlance, that a new "reboot" was necessary to bring things "on track": the War of Souls, of which I am not fond either, but at least is more interesting than Dhamon & C.; at least, the hand of Weis and Hickman shows.

To me, Dragonlance is everything up to and including the Summer of Chaos, and even that was not necessary IMO.

NulSyn · Post by **NulSyn** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:49 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
I liked the SAGA system, but did not like how the campaign went on. The events depicted in the SAGA adventures, based on J. Rabe's novels, are not that interesting, and introduce so many alien elements to dragonlance, that a new "reboot" was necessary to bring things "on track": the War of Souls, of which I am not fond either, but at least is more interesting than Dhamon & C.; at least, the hand of Weis and Hickman shows.

To me, Dragonlance is everything up to and including the Summer of Chaos, and even that was not necessary IMO.

See I even liked the 5th age novels and War of Souls. I thought they were good reads. I even like what they are doing now with Mina and Chemosh.
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