C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

CrazyBlend · Post by **CrazyBlend** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:23 pm

I'm new to these forums, and to C&C in general. I apologize if this question has been asked before, but I didn't see it.

I always purchase RPG materials in PDF, so I can have them on my laptop. But I notice that, out of all the C&C materials available in PDF, the Player's Handbook is conspicuous in its absence.

I have C&C Condensed, which is great, but I would purchase the full PH in a heartbeat. I'm wondering if/when it will be available.

Thanks.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:46 pm

Only official word I have is that its not available, and is not likely going to be.
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CrazyBlend · Post by **CrazyBlend** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:03 am

That's weird. Any word on why the PH is singled out for exclusion?

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:10 am

CrazyBlend wrote:
That's weird. Any word on why the PH is singled out for exclusion?

Well, I seem to recall some discussions in general about PDFs for RPG companies - in that, once the main book is on PDF, major pirating occurs and incredible lost sales follow. I know other companies have main rulebook PDFs, but I'm not so sure that they contain all the rules like the PH does.

Personally, I'm in complete agreement with not making the book available on PDF.

And of course, I understand a consumer wishing to have that option. Hopefully, in the future there will be a way to do this. Hmm, seems odd that there isn't one now. Maybe, I'm not paying attention, because I really don't like PDFs or eBooks and other electronic media for books and such.

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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:15 am

CrazyBlend wrote:
That's weird. Any word on why the PH is singled out for exclusion?

One possible reason that's been mentioned before: to curb the unauthorized distribution of the file. The PHB is truly the only book one needs to play the game, where as the others are more 'optional' -- even the M&T (though to a lesser extent).

However, depending on what you need, the Condensed PHB might fit the bill and is a great way to introduce new people to the game (it doesn't include all the classes but had a selection of Monsters and Adventure).

M
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Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:50 am

Rhuvein wrote:
... I really don't like PDFs or eBooks and other electronic media for books and such.

I normally much prefer proper books. However, I travel a lot, and it's nice to have all of my rpg stuff easily available on my laptop!

I'd love to see the PHB in pdf for this reason. But if that's not on the cards for the reasons already stated in this thread, I guess that can live with that.

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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:55 pm

pdf versions of RPG books when released hit the news groups so fast and are then sent out to the internet. What a waste of money. I can see why RPG companies should NEVER do this.

-O
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:30 pm

Pirating doesn't depend on the IP owner releasing a digital version of the book. Scanners are cheap.

Storm Queen · Post by **Storm Queen** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:18 pm

It just means that legitimate customers are unable to buy the full book in PDF format. Those that want to give TLG money... can't.
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Post by **Fiffergrund** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:55 pm

Let's see.

Scanning 128 pages, then formatting a PDF just to give away on a filesharing network = Tons of effort.

Buying a PDF, filesharing it, and having the work done for you = Zero effort.

Just because burglars know many ways of getting into your home doesn't mean you should just leave your door unlocked.
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:41 pm

Fiffergrund wrote:
Let's see.

Scanning 128 pages, then formatting a PDF just to give away on a filesharing network = Tons of effort.

Buying a PDF, filesharing it, and having the work done for you = Zero effort.

Just because burglars know many ways of getting into your home doesn't mean you should just leave your door unlocked.

At a former job I was tasked to look at PDFs on filesharing networks. MOST of the books there were scanned in one page at a time. You'd be surprised.

PDFs have a legitimate place in the market. Leaving your house unlocked is not a clear analog to creating a PDF product. Product is product to be sold. Lots of companies do it. Do I expect the Trolls to do it just for me? No. That's their decision but to say that it's a bad idea period is missing the mark, IMO.

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:14 am

Eisenmann wrote:
...

PDFs have a legitimate place in the market. Leaving your house unlocked is not a clear analog to creating a PDF product. Product is product to be sold. Lots of companies do it...

Right. Given that most other RPG companies make their core books available as PDF products, I'm not convinced that doing so is financially disastrous. If it was, then almost every RPG company would be out of business.

It's TLG's decision, of course, but the claim that offering PDFs of core books must somehow be the doom of a company is falsified by the actual experience of other companies, even smaller ones like Green Ronin, ICE, etc.

However, this isn't a huge deal for me. It's slightly inconvenient not to have the PHB in PDF, but I'll certainly continue to support C&C nonetheless.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:25 am

Truth be told, I'm fine with it and just because it is TLG policy now doesn't mean that this won't change. I remember when there was briefly the possibility of a slight price increase in the 3rd print run of the PHB, Steve had considered possibly revisiting a PDF copy of the book to avoid a price increase (or something to that effect). The good news is that the price didn't go up and they were able to get by fine without making this other option available.

There is something to be said about exposure of the game in general. That is done primarily through the sales of books at retailers. The more that is sold, the more that they are requested, the better it is for TLG as a whole. One LGS near my place has a copy or two left of the PHB and M&T ... they are still the older print editions even though the store owner is a fan intent on bringing more stuff in. I'd rather see a book move off his shelf than someone just picking up the PDF.

As a fan, I can also sympathize with others who use PDFs. I know I have gotten GREAT use of the M&T PDF and, excluding the PHB/M&T set I recently gave a friend, I still own 3 physical copies of the PHB and 2 physical copies of the M&T. If errata corrections are substantial in the next print run of the PHB (how are sales for that going by the way) I'll be getting another.

M
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:41 am

I'm on the fence.

I can see how having a PDF would be super convenient, and can't imagine having to lug books around the country if I'm going to be playing online anyway.

I can also see how a PDF could hurt sales.

Pour moi though, I absolutely HAVE to have a hardcopy to flip through, so the issue doesn't really affect me either way.

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:50 am

moriarty777 wrote:
... I'd rather see a book move off his shelf than someone just picking up the PDF...

You're assuming that people will purchase either the PDF or the book. However, many people (like myself) get PDFs for books they already own. A PDF serves different functions than a book does. Most people who actually play a particular game purchase PDFs to supplement, rather than replace, their books.
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:51 am

I'm one of those guys who likes the book/PDF combo. I'll buy both because each is useful in its own way. I like books for reading and learning the system. I like PDFs for running games and for writing my own material. It is incredibly easy to search a PDF to find something in an instant. Heck, on OS X all PDFs on the system are indexed by Spotlight and I'm able to find information immediately without even having to go open the PDF I want by hand.

Often when running a game I'm able to do rule/info lookups on the fly without my players even knowing. This kind of functionality is fantastic when a book doesn't have an index.
There are definite instances where a PDF is utterly useless. It would have been difficult to give a PDF of the PHB and M&T to Toys for Tots this past Christmas. I also have two copies of the PHB for use at the gaming table. For no other game have I purchased more than a single copy of the core book. And I own a bunch of systems.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:01 am

Akrasia wrote:
You're assuming that people will purchase either the PDF or the book. However, many people (like myself) get PDFs for books they already own. A PDF serves different functions than a book does. Most people who actually play a particular game purchase PDFs to supplement, rather than replace, their books.

True... that's an assumption. I know that, like others, I will buy a PDF copy on top of certain hardcopies of various products I already own. I've done so with the M&T and do the same with modules (in order to keep my print modules in pristine condition).

Then again, there are some that would buy one or the other -- especially if there is a price differential between the two. My argument best applies to those examples.
M
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:07 am

Hell, I've been buying the TL PDFs from DTRPG just because I gladly take any opportunity I can to give the Trolls my money. For the most part, I just collect PDFs, collecting for the sake of collecting, but I also think of them as backups for my books. Very often, if I need to quickly look something up I'll go to the PDF, just to spare the wear-and-tear on the book. I also use the PDFs to copy out needed paragraphs or such for game day.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:56 pm

Perhaps, one of the reasons the RPG market is in the doldrums is because of .pdfs. For example, about 6 months back I was sitting in on a store game of v3.5. There were 8 players, and 5 of them had laptops. These guys were playing the game out of their laptops, with no books to speak of. As I sat their they all shared their books together and gave copies of the books to each other. Every one of them.

I personally know a few fellows that I game with on a regular basis who are so cheap, and because books are so readily available free of charge on the internet, they never EVER pay for RPG books.

That my friends is a problem.

-O
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:53 pm

Omote wrote:
Perhaps, one of the reasons the RPG market is in the doldrums is because of .pdfs. For example, about 6 months back I was sitting in on a store game of v3.5. There were 8 players, and 5 of them had laptops. These guys were playing the game out of their laptops, with no books to speak of. As I sat their they all shared their books together and gave copies of the books to each other. Every one of them.

I personally know a few fellows that I game with on a regular basis who are so cheap, and because books are so readily available free of charge on the internet, they never EVER pay for RPG books.

That my friends is a problem.

-O

If it was as simple as the existence of PDFs. Truth of the matter is that they're not going away and probably help the industry expand in ways that traditionally it could not.

I'd think that the issue goes beyond anecdotal evidence.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:19 am

I did say it was only ONE of the reasons the industry is in such bad shape. It is far from the only reason. If you want to look to the ways the industry is going, look no farhter then WOTC who understands the issue is so bad, that it is moving to a digital format. If you want the "D&D" goods as soon as possible, then all you have to do is pay a small, monthly fee.

Let's say that I personally know 4-8 people who trade and download illegal pdfs of RPG books... and that's only from my area! Think of all the gamers we know. Let's say one or two chooses to download illegal pdfs instead of buy them. Think then just how much small companies like TLG loose to this piracy.

Your right, .pdfs are never going to go away. But how about a company protecting what it can until a better solution comes along?

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:30 am

If it makes the Trolls money, they should do it. If it does not, they should not. Apparently, for as many years as the PHB has been around, they have felt it would not make them money. I support that, because it is their choice. Do I think they might make more by selling it? Sure, they might. I might also turn into a woman tomorrow. Mights and definites don't play the same game... the Trolls have to decide, if they can, which is what and how it was or will be, or whatever the hell.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:32 am

serleran wrote:
...I might also turn into a woman tomorrow.

Eek. That would be a bad day now wouldn't it.
-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:34 am

You've no idea, girlfriend.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:36 am

'Scuse me?! It's GURLFREN' dammit.
-O
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Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:26 am

serleran wrote:
... Apparently, for as many years as the PHB has been around, they have felt it would not make them money. I support that, because it is their choice...

Sure it's ultimately the decision of TLG. However, as consumers we can point out that we would like the PHB in PDF -- and would be willing to pay for it. We can also point out that other small companies offer PDFs of their core rulebooks, and don't seem to suffer from it (since they keep doing it). TLG is hardly infallible. As a friend and supporter of the company, I don't see any harm in making such suggestions or requests. Quite the opposite.
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:47 am

Omote wrote:
Your right, .pdfs are never going to go away. But how about a company protecting what it can until a better solution comes along?

-O

The question then becomes what's a better solution? A DRM system that restricts fair use? That IMO would be more disastrous than some cheap *bleep*ed gamers sharing copies of their stuff.

Shambleau · Post by **Shambleau** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:46 pm

But seeing as a scanned version of the PHB can be found illegally, would it not be a good move to launch a legal version of it?

jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:24 pm

More anecdotal evidence, such as it may be...

Back in 2002 I started playing a 3E game with some old friends. I'd known three of the five guys since elementary school. Every one of the five knew I worked in the game industry, that I made my bread and butter working in the game industry, that my livelihood was based on the success of the industry.

Of the five, one guy had bought every D&D book to come out; but then, he was a packrat anyway (he also bought most of his books off eBay and Internet discounters, too). Three had bought the PHB, and one had bought the DMG and MM.

Yet every one of them had EVERY book that WotC had released on PDF on their laptops; most of these were not yet legally available as PDFs!

And not a one of them saw a problem with their piracy.

Ever since I have dreamed of the day that there would be a technology that would allow publishers to sell PDF products that could not be copied and given away. Prayed for the day. Because without this technology, the game industry as we know it is doomed.

When even 50% of the consumers who want a product can get a product for free through piracy, and consider there to be no moral or ethical reasons not to do so, that is the doom of the industry. It is part and parcel of the collapse we have seen over the last several years. And it will only get worse.

This is why I have no plans to offer regular, in-print AGP products in PDF format. I'd rather flush $20 bills down the toilet.

Sales gained through the "free" use of pirated products are negligible, and do not make up for the lost sales from the initial piracy. This is not anectdotal evidence; this is from studies companies have paid money to have done.

The argument that people who steal these products would never pay for them anyway is a non-argument; just because I would never pay to buy your car, does that mean I can steal it? Of course not.

The argument that stealing a product that does not actually take a physical good out of someone's hands is also a non-argument, and shows an utter lack of knowledge of intellectual property laws and the reasons we have them.

Simply put, if there is no financial reason to write a book, or publish a game, most people won't. People can't live on the kudos of thieves.
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:56 pm

I too know lots of people who had their laptops full of (illegal) 3.x pdfs. I am not the kind of person who likes pdf in general; I want hard copies of the books. But I can see the need of people who would rather have pdfs. Fact is, technologies like DRM are not going to be the solution to piracy, since they are too unwieldy for the user. Two or three years ago I bought some pdfs from drivethru, when they were trying Adobe DRM. Well, it was a mess. If you change machine, you must do a re-authentication. If you update Acrobat, you must do a re-authentication. Not user friendly at all. And in fact, after some months drivethru resorted to watermarking; which can be annoying (many WotC pdfs have been done so badly, that watermarking overwrites the actual text ), but at least is some form of protection.

All in all, I think that, given that humanity is what it is, the wider pdf market would not probably generate enough income to cover piracy. Better having only the paper book then.

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C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

C&C Players Handbook in PDF?

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