okay, I know some people will see this as the bane of an RPG, but one of the players I'm with is wanting to do two weapon fighting (The assassin, wouldn't you know it, doesn't matter to me, I'm playing a different class).
Are there rules pertaining to this, if so where. If not, how do you guys handle it. Currently it appears the DM might either rule against allowing it, or allow it without any penalties to that player (which I'm against as I see that as a little unfair to the rest of us...but I digress, but you can see my side of the argument/discussion in the group).
Two weapon fighting
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gideon_thorne
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Re: Two weapon fighting
Page 119.
Its under combat, and combat maneuvers in the TOC.
and -3/-6 is correct.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
Its under combat, and combat maneuvers in the TOC.
and -3/-6 is correct.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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Philotomy Jurament
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Thanks guys. I'll point out the page to the DM. It sounds more fair than what he was thinking. I'll also point out the link. Though the rules in C&C seem more like the D&D rules I actually like one of the ideas on the page a lot better
Which shows an advantage and a detriment, but with how we roll to hit monsters, at our level (level 2) I'm betting that since he'll miss a whole bunch, the incentive to min/max for that player will go out the window, and since they're an assassin, it might keep them from doing it for a while.
Quote:
Just a crazy thought:
A character attacking with two weapons must make two TH rolls. If either fails, the entire attack fails. If both hit, roll damage for both weapons.
Rationale: Two-weapon fighting is devestating, but difficult.
But will all high level characters then use two weapons?
Which shows an advantage and a detriment, but with how we roll to hit monsters, at our level (level 2) I'm betting that since he'll miss a whole bunch, the incentive to min/max for that player will go out the window, and since they're an assassin, it might keep them from doing it for a while.
Two weapon fighting works great if you have a high dex and low str. In my current game, the thief uses an off-hand weapon when in combat. His dex bonus is +3 and his str bonus is +0. So he basically gets a second attack at a penalty, but it doesnt affect his main attack at all due to his dex.
So if your stats are right for it, I would recommend it, whatever level.
So if your stats are right for it, I would recommend it, whatever level.
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gideon_thorne
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Re: Two weapon fighting
*chuckles* This topic and multi classing were the 'bane' of the developmental team for C&C as well. When it runs off into the hundreds of pages, folks will understand why at least a portion of the design of the game took so long.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Re: Two weapon fighting
gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* This topic and multi classing were the 'bane' of the developmental team for C&C as well. When it runs off into the hundreds of pages, folks will understand why at least a portion of the design of the game took so long.
It is written somewhat amibguously and thus up to the individual tastes of the CK. I, too, am somewhat bothered that your typical first level thief can potentially begin play using a two-weapon style that is more deadly than his fighter counterpart, but as the BtH of the fighter goes up, this is soon negated.
IMC, I closely monitor this combat style. They must be balanced weapons, or a pair of two light weapons. I won't allow, say, a wizard to do this at all. Presently, I have one fellow who plays a thief/cleric who does a shortsword/dagger attack. I also have a monk who does two barehand attacks. As the monk advances, he wil soon gain the ability to do this without penalty.
--Ghul
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csperkins1970
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Here's the system I intend to use (it, admittedly, borrows from 3rd edition)
Two-Weapon Fighting: Characters, at some point, will attempt to fight with a melee weapon in each hand. This is a difficult skill to master, and it takes much experience to do it well. When using two melee weapons, the player must designate which hand is use for the primary attack and which the off-hand attack. This is determined at the start of play.
The character is allowed to swing with both weapons, thus gaining an additional attack, at his highest BtH bonus, each round. The primary weapon receives a -4 penalty to hit while the offhand weapon receives a -8 penalty to hit.
If at least one weapon, typically the off-hand weapon, is a light weapon (one that is at least one size category smaller than the character wielding it) these penalties are reduced by 1. Characters with a dexterity bonus reduce the two-weapon fighting penalties by their dexterity modifier so long as they are unencumbered.
Finally, for characters with dexterity as a prime ability, the two-weapon fighting penalties are reduced by 1. These penalty reductions stack, so that a human character with a 14 dexterity (+1 modifier), using a light weapon in his off-hand (+1 modifier), and with dexterity as a prime (+1 modifier) has his two-weapon fighting penalties reduced by 3, to 1/-5. Note that these three types of bonuses only serve to offset the penalties for two-weapon fighting and may never improve the characters attack rolls.
Strength bonuses to damage are normal for the primary weapon and halved (rounding fractions down) for the off-hand weapon. Bonus damage derived from class abilities, such as weapon specialization and combat marauder, is not halved.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Characters, at some point, will attempt to fight with a melee weapon in each hand. This is a difficult skill to master, and it takes much experience to do it well. When using two melee weapons, the player must designate which hand is use for the primary attack and which the off-hand attack. This is determined at the start of play.
The character is allowed to swing with both weapons, thus gaining an additional attack, at his highest BtH bonus, each round. The primary weapon receives a -4 penalty to hit while the offhand weapon receives a -8 penalty to hit.
If at least one weapon, typically the off-hand weapon, is a light weapon (one that is at least one size category smaller than the character wielding it) these penalties are reduced by 1. Characters with a dexterity bonus reduce the two-weapon fighting penalties by their dexterity modifier so long as they are unencumbered.
Finally, for characters with dexterity as a prime ability, the two-weapon fighting penalties are reduced by 1. These penalty reductions stack, so that a human character with a 14 dexterity (+1 modifier), using a light weapon in his off-hand (+1 modifier), and with dexterity as a prime (+1 modifier) has his two-weapon fighting penalties reduced by 3, to 1/-5. Note that these three types of bonuses only serve to offset the penalties for two-weapon fighting and may never improve the characters attack rolls.
Strength bonuses to damage are normal for the primary weapon and halved (rounding fractions down) for the off-hand weapon. Bonus damage derived from class abilities, such as weapon specialization and combat marauder, is not halved.
I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am... a god.
Off the top of my head, another way to do it is to allow martial types (Assassins, Barbarians, Bards, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, and Thieves) to sacrifice one of their class abilities in exchange for one that mimics the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat from the SRD. This ability reduces penalties for fighting with a weapon in each hand by two (resulting in -1/-4, offset by Dexterity; a Fighter with 2-weapon fighting and a Dex of 13 would then fight at 0/-3).
It should be an even (or lesser) switch.
The Fighter, for example, shouldn't get 2 Weapon Fighting in exchange for Combat Dominance. Rather, he should get it in place of Weapon Specialization.
The Rogue sacrifices Back Attack (though still gains Sneak Attack at 4th level; its bonuses apply to only one weapon in appropriate situations).
I don't have my PHB handy to go through all the classes, but that's just my thought on the matter.
It should be an even (or lesser) switch.
The Fighter, for example, shouldn't get 2 Weapon Fighting in exchange for Combat Dominance. Rather, he should get it in place of Weapon Specialization.
The Rogue sacrifices Back Attack (though still gains Sneak Attack at 4th level; its bonuses apply to only one weapon in appropriate situations).
I don't have my PHB handy to go through all the classes, but that's just my thought on the matter.
Or you could use the Duelist character class I just added to my website:
http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/
a direct link:
http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/duelist.pdf
I quite literally just worked it up, so it could be unbalanced. I don't think so, but no real way to tell until someone plays it .
http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/
a direct link:
http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/duelist.pdf
I quite literally just worked it up, so it could be unbalanced. I don't think so, but no real way to tell until someone plays it .
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Philotomy Jurament
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meepo wrote:
Yes! I've personally like WSmiths variant. Simple and elegant!
Yeah, that's the approach I like best, too. My only question about it is what to do if one of the two weapons is "special." For example, what if one is +2, and the other is normal? Or what if one is poisoned, and the other is not?
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moriarty777
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There are a few things that I'm thinking of doing dealing with multiple attacks and two weapon fighting. Previous guidance in these forums have helped my decide what I want to try out.
I like the possibility for characters to get multiple attacks and the 2nd ed AD&D model seems fair enough which ran something like this:
level one to six gives 1 attack per round
level seven to thirteen gives 3 attacks every 2 rounds
level fourteen to twenty gives 2 attacks per round
I was thinking of using that 'crazy' idea of multiple weapons to multiple attack. If the player 'chooses' his character to attack twice (basically a follow through maneuver), 2 TH rolls are rolls initially and if either fails, the entire attack fails. This provides a sense of strategy and diversity in play... although you won't see this happening till at least 7th level.
In a figher's case... he still get's his Extra Attack ability on top of this which is rolled separate. It is, after all, what he does.
For multiple weapons... I think the details in the C&C PHB as is seems to work out but cannot be combined with the multiple attacks I mentioned above... It is also for this reason why I've decided to go with Shields giving a straight AC bonus which means a multi-weaponed character will risk a bit more without a shield. I am still considering elements from the WSmiths variant though.
Moriarty the Red
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I like the possibility for characters to get multiple attacks and the 2nd ed AD&D model seems fair enough which ran something like this:
level one to six gives 1 attack per round
level seven to thirteen gives 3 attacks every 2 rounds
level fourteen to twenty gives 2 attacks per round
I was thinking of using that 'crazy' idea of multiple weapons to multiple attack. If the player 'chooses' his character to attack twice (basically a follow through maneuver), 2 TH rolls are rolls initially and if either fails, the entire attack fails. This provides a sense of strategy and diversity in play... although you won't see this happening till at least 7th level.
In a figher's case... he still get's his Extra Attack ability on top of this which is rolled separate. It is, after all, what he does.
For multiple weapons... I think the details in the C&C PHB as is seems to work out but cannot be combined with the multiple attacks I mentioned above... It is also for this reason why I've decided to go with Shields giving a straight AC bonus which means a multi-weaponed character will risk a bit more without a shield. I am still considering elements from the WSmiths variant though.
Moriarty the Red
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Dragonhelm
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I'm sort of expanding the classes to where they progress through all 20 levels. I've been toying around with the idea of two-weapon fighting myself.
I was noticing how many of the feats in 3e revolve around giving a secondary attack, whether in melee or with a bow. I've made this a class ability for rangers and fighters I call Two-Attack Fighting. Basically, you can do two-weapon fighting, or fire two arrows at once or one right after another, or attack twice with a single melee weapon. Once you pick your style, you have to stick with it. It may have some bugs to work out.
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Trampas Whiteman
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Dragonlance Nexus
I was noticing how many of the feats in 3e revolve around giving a secondary attack, whether in melee or with a bow. I've made this a class ability for rangers and fighters I call Two-Attack Fighting. Basically, you can do two-weapon fighting, or fire two arrows at once or one right after another, or attack twice with a single melee weapon. Once you pick your style, you have to stick with it. It may have some bugs to work out.
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Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus
I never have liked 'Two weapon fighting'. Characters who use a shield are essentially 'two weapon fighting', using one for defense. Here is what I have been thinking about doing:
Two Weapon Fighting +2 to hit, roll d6 with attack roll, if even, primary weapon, if odd secondary weapon.
Shield Use: No AC bonus. Small shield 25% chance of deflecting one melee or ranged attack. Medium shield, 50% chance of deflecting first melee attack, 25% of deflecting second. Large shield, 75% on first attack, 25% on second attack. Shields have HP. They absorb the damage of the attack.
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Two Weapon Fighting +2 to hit, roll d6 with attack roll, if even, primary weapon, if odd secondary weapon.
Shield Use: No AC bonus. Small shield 25% chance of deflecting one melee or ranged attack. Medium shield, 50% chance of deflecting first melee attack, 25% of deflecting second. Large shield, 75% on first attack, 25% on second attack. Shields have HP. They absorb the damage of the attack.
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baran_i_kanu
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i'm using my homebrew based on Akrasia's fighting styles (tweaked and renamed.)
Dave's Fighting Styles
(based on Akrasias fighting styles.)
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... ter+styles
At 4th level characters can choose one of the following four 'styles'. Each style is limited to certain classes (optional classes are categorized by the CK.).
Fighters.Some of these styles work in conjunction with the 'extra attack' ability fighters get at 10th level.
(a.) Dual Weapon......Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Knight, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.
At 4th level the character can fight with two weapons with only a -1 penalty to each attack, so long as his 'off-hand' weapon is a 'small' weapon (i.e. short sword or smaller) or 2 to each attack if the off-hand is a medium weapon .
The character must be wearing 'light' armour (chain shirt or lighter) to use this style.
The character must have dexterity as a prime in order to choose this fighting style.
(b.) Dervish......Barbarian, Fighter, Knight, Paladin.
At 4th level the character can 'cleave': if the character fells one opponent in melee, he gets one free attack on an adjacent opponent (an opponent that is within the 'reach' of his weapon, and whom he can attack without moving).
The character must be using a medium sized weapon to use this ability. (Not with dagger!)
Dervish can only be used with slashing or blunt weapons, not piercing weapons.
At 10th level the Fighter can attack twice per round, but only the first attack can use the 'cleave' or 'great cleave' ability.
(c.) Archery......Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.
At 4th level the character can 'rapid fire': i.e., attack with a bow twice per round with a -1 penalty to each attack. The character can also fire into melee with only no penalty, but there is still a chance of hitting an ally if the attack misses.
The character must have dexterity as a prime in order to choose this fighting style.
d.) Shield Fighter......Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Knight.
At 4th level the character gains +2 to AC with a shield instead of the normal +1. The number of foes defended against is doubled for the shield type used.
Multiclassing
The required 4th level is total character level. The most levels in a class determines if it is the character's main class to choose a style. If two classes are of equal level the PC/NPC picks one as his class to choose a style.
Characters may only ever choose one fighting style (at total character level 4.)
I have a player approaching 4th level heading straight for the Dual Weapon option. He's a modified Swashbuckler from the Colin Sez Class Variants (a bit of cheese here, but fun cheese....he's a Whipfighter, simply replacing rapier with whip-dagger. Hey he's a former 3e player and it's a fun character concept. A Dwarven Whipfighter. It's been a blast!) He gets the extra hit with little penalty but he's gotta be careful with the lighter armor requirement.
Dave's Fighting Styles
(based on Akrasias fighting styles.)
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... ter+styles
At 4th level characters can choose one of the following four 'styles'. Each style is limited to certain classes (optional classes are categorized by the CK.).
Fighters.Some of these styles work in conjunction with the 'extra attack' ability fighters get at 10th level.
(a.) Dual Weapon......Assassin, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Knight, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.
At 4th level the character can fight with two weapons with only a -1 penalty to each attack, so long as his 'off-hand' weapon is a 'small' weapon (i.e. short sword or smaller) or 2 to each attack if the off-hand is a medium weapon .
The character must be wearing 'light' armour (chain shirt or lighter) to use this style.
The character must have dexterity as a prime in order to choose this fighting style.
(b.) Dervish......Barbarian, Fighter, Knight, Paladin.
At 4th level the character can 'cleave': if the character fells one opponent in melee, he gets one free attack on an adjacent opponent (an opponent that is within the 'reach' of his weapon, and whom he can attack without moving).
The character must be using a medium sized weapon to use this ability. (Not with dagger!)
Dervish can only be used with slashing or blunt weapons, not piercing weapons.
At 10th level the Fighter can attack twice per round, but only the first attack can use the 'cleave' or 'great cleave' ability.
(c.) Archery......Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue.
At 4th level the character can 'rapid fire': i.e., attack with a bow twice per round with a -1 penalty to each attack. The character can also fire into melee with only no penalty, but there is still a chance of hitting an ally if the attack misses.
The character must have dexterity as a prime in order to choose this fighting style.
d.) Shield Fighter......Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Knight.
At 4th level the character gains +2 to AC with a shield instead of the normal +1. The number of foes defended against is doubled for the shield type used.
Multiclassing
The required 4th level is total character level. The most levels in a class determines if it is the character's main class to choose a style. If two classes are of equal level the PC/NPC picks one as his class to choose a style.
Characters may only ever choose one fighting style (at total character level 4.)
I have a player approaching 4th level heading straight for the Dual Weapon option. He's a modified Swashbuckler from the Colin Sez Class Variants (a bit of cheese here, but fun cheese....he's a Whipfighter, simply replacing rapier with whip-dagger. Hey he's a former 3e player and it's a fun character concept. A Dwarven Whipfighter. It's been a blast!) He gets the extra hit with little penalty but he's gotta be careful with the lighter armor requirement.
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moriarty777
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I think I'm going to dip into AD&D's Complete Fighter's handbook... they had style varients as well... (basic ones) which might be interesting to consider as well as some of their called shots rules.
The called shots rule variations there could also make helm AC values a much more valued commodity.
But I digress.
Has anyone taken a good look or adapated some of the material in the Complete Fighter's book to address the question of multiple weapons?
Moriarty the Red
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Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
The called shots rule variations there could also make helm AC values a much more valued commodity.
But I digress.
Has anyone taken a good look or adapated some of the material in the Complete Fighter's book to address the question of multiple weapons?
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Yeah, that's the approach I like best, too. My only question about it is what to do if one of the two weapons is "special." For example, what if one is +2, and the other is normal? Or what if one is poisoned, and the other is not?
My thoughts about that were to roll the damage first, to determine which weapon has the potential for hitting. (If both weapons do the same damage, then you want to use different color dice.) The weapon with the higher damage roll is the one with the potential to hit. Add any "to hit" modifier for that weapon to the attack roll.
Then the question is whether any bonuses to damage count towards the potential hit candidate. I tend to think, "no", but I could make the case for "Yes".
At Robert Fisher's D&D site, he has some interesting ideas on two-weapon fitghting. You might want to check it out (and the rest of his site - great stuff)
http://robert.infogami.com/Two_weapon_fighting
http://robert.infogami.com/Two_weapon_fighting
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gideon_thorne
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serleran wrote:
Yes. Dexterity offsets the penalties. Many argue that Strength does, as well. I do not recall if this is a BtB answer, but it is my preference (note, that is a preference) to not allow it... but, I'm mean.
BTB, no, Str only affects damage. But then again, im opposite the Surly Serl and am inclined to allow STR to stack and negate the penalties as well. ^_~`
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach