Where I been, what I been doin...

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:43 pm

Hah.

Sorry my postage has been spotty of late.

Downside is that probably wont let up anytime soon.

I been BUSY.

Switched to teaching High School Graphic Arts which kicks a$$, but is a bit more time consuming. (Tho more satisfying, my first year in I had a kid win 2nd place in a design contest and got a cash prize for it... good goin!)

Had to do some revisions and rewrites for a couple books and some expansions of others... (Dro Mandras looking at you, and sorry to friends for the delay).

Turned in Black Libram of Nartarus last night. A sourcebook of sorts for the HH setting. Basically its like a combo of the monsters of airde books with stuff on necromancers and a pile of black magic and necromancer type abilities to mix in with existing spellcaster classes.

Book of Battles (Another HH sourcebook with mass combat rules for HH setting) is turned in and awaiting art. Peter has a kick ass cover for it going.

Other stuff is in the works as always including helping out on the ever elusive CKG.

More soon.

Peace

Case

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:29 pm

Awesome! Can't wait to see more HH material.
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magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:53 pm

Excellent news, indeed. HH are my favorite sourcebook/modules for C&C!! Can't wait.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:59 pm

Sounds awesome Case! Look forward to seeing it all.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:54 am

Good news. We need us some HH.

-O
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:39 am

Am I right in assuming that Haunted Highlands is being discussed here?

If so, cool.

If not, help a brother out.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:41 am

Hah, hah. I was just thinking the same thing.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:41 am

Harry Joy wrote:
Am I right in assuming that Haunted Highlands is being discussed here?

If so, cool.

If not, help a brother out.

Oh helz yeah.

That's Dirty Bowbe hisself doncha know!!
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:54 am

Really cool -- I can't wait for this stuff... particular the "Black Libram of Nartarus"!

M
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:06 am

What more can I say but more HH is teh kewel.
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Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:34 am

Seriously.

Thanks for the awesome responses especially from our hard corps.

Yes to Harry and Matthew Haunted Highlands is what its all about.

All the focus on 4e nonsense and what-which that seems to be the rage amongst so many folks has really further pushed me into Haunted Highlands related stuff, but I really want to do it right so forgive my pokeyness.

Usually I work on about 4+ things at a time. Likely i'm working on 4 things and come up with 4 more ideas that I have to jott down, map out, draw reference illustrations for, and then get back to as the time permits and creative juices are flowing.

I have some opportunities down the road to do some 4e stuff. I will probably have to take them if for nothing more than to reach a much broader audience, and because my relationship with Necromancer Games is as tight and close as my relationship with my good friends the Trolls. What can I say. I have people I really enjoy working for that respect me and give me the creative freedom and rights that I like.

That said, my ongoing game for the last 8 months or so has been C&C. I have more fun running it, developing stuff for it, and writing it.

I DO have tons of stuff developed and written for (it) already as I have said! More Crater, Amyan Jymoon, and an in progress adventure im cranking on for SoonerCon.

Dirty Bowbe's Book of Battles (or whatever the title I landed on happens to be) is great fun too. I really wanted to get the feel of something that plays as a great strategy battle game + is fully integratable as an enhancement to all of the role playing aspects that make C&C so great.

Later!

Case

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:05 am

The Haunted Highlands is my favourite module series from TLG (the only one I'm actually 'collecting'), so I'm looking forward to the new installments.

EDIT: Is there a breakdown of the upcoming modules (e.g. DB4, DB5, etc.), so I can know which future modules will cover which topics?
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:45 am

Bowbe wrote:
Seriously.

Thanks for the awesome responses especially from our hard corps.

Yes to Harry and Matthew Haunted Highlands is what its all about.

All the focus on 4e nonsense and what-which that seems to be the rage amongst so many folks has really further pushed me into Haunted Highlands related stuff, but I really want to do it right so forgive my pokeyness.

Usually I work on about 4+ things at a time. Likely i'm working on 4 things and come up with 4 more ideas that I have to jott down, map out, draw reference illustrations for, and then get back to as the time permits and creative juices are flowing.

I have some opportunities down the road to do some 4e stuff. I will probably have to take them if for nothing more than to reach a much broader audience, and because my relationship with Necromancer Games is as tight and close as my relationship with my good friends the Trolls. What can I say. I have people I really enjoy working for that respect me and give me the creative freedom and rights that I like.

That said, my ongoing game for the last 8 months or so has been C&C. I have more fun running it, developing stuff for it, and writing it.

I DO have tons of stuff developed and written for (it) already as I have said! More Crater, Amyan Jymoon, and an in progress adventure im cranking on for SoonerCon.

Dirty Bowbe's Book of Battles (or whatever the title I landed on happens to be) is great fun too. I really wanted to get the feel of something that plays as a great strategy battle game + is fully integratable as an enhancement to all of the role playing aspects that make C&C so great.

Later!

Case

Heh, maybe you can get Necro to see the light and come to the crusade rather than the abyss that will be 4e.
Just promise to keep the HH stuff with us and you can do whatever you want.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:24 pm

Can't wait to see what you've been cooking, Case.

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:14 am

Check the Dro Mandras folio page for more updates on what is going on.

Its in the adventures section...

That thread may need a name change
Case

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:10 am

Bowbe wrote:
Check the Dro Mandras folio page for more updates on what is going on.

Its in the adventures section...

That thread may need a name change
Case

Like what should it be called, Casey?

-O
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Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:13 pm

Both of those should be very cool. The Black Libram sounds particularly boss.

From the description, I take it that there won't be a new Necromancer class...or will there?

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:22 pm

Steve and I talked this over at length and really here is the deal.

Constant invention of new character classes is AWESOME... for your game and for message boards, and occassionally the Keeper.

What it isn't good for is entry level gamers, marketing, and keeping your booksellers/distributors happy. Why? Because when you start piling in new character classes of every stripe you start dilluting the Archetypes so much you end up with 4th edition D&D and not the type and style of market that we are really shooting to preserve and enhance.

I had a really awesome kick ass necromancer class... but at the end of the day what good was it by itself?

Steve struck on a really really good suggestion. Instead of creating a "Necromancer" why not anylize what a necromancer is: A spellcaster that has dealing with the Undead or a fascination with the life and death continuum.

Why not generate powers and abilities open to any spellcasting class that suit a necromancer. This way you preserve the archtypes, offer variations and depth to the way that they are currently played, and give them new powers they can sub out, trade for, or buy.

If the focus afterall is supposed to be on literary style role play why not give some tools that re-inforce that rather than pidgeon hole a "Necromancer" into its own awesome but campaign limited class?

Steve's a pretty smart guy. Ocassionally he gives me money. I like that and tend to listen to what he says!

I liked where he was going with the idea so thats what I did and it made getting the book finished about a million times easier. I didn't offer too many necromancer "powers" because the spells are so pimped. Instead I gave a few that offer a guideline to expand or generate new powers based on the flavor and feel of your home game.

And when I say spellcaster classes here... I mean all of em. Archtypes are groovy, they give me a tingle
I may be totally wrong, but I think this really works well and hey... it also doesn't piss off booksellers who fear a bajillion "splatbooks" that will sit on their shelf forever... like 3.0 and 3.5 and 2e stuff we see.

Thanks for reading my ramble!

Case

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:09 am

Bowbe wrote:
Steve and I talked this over at length and really here is the deal.

Steve struck on a really really good suggestion. Instead of creating a "Necromancer" why not anylize what a necromancer is: A spellcaster that has dealing with the Undead or a fascination with the life and death continuum.

Why not generate powers and abilities open to any spellcasting class that suit a necromancer. This way you preserve the archtypes, offer variations and depth to the way that they are currently played, and give them new powers they can sub out, trade for, or buy.

If the focus afterall is supposed to be on literary style role play why not give some tools that re-inforce that rather than pidgeon hole a "Necromancer" into its own awesome but campaign limited class?

This is why I keep the essential "Feat concept" in my games. To develop powers specific to each players PC and their concept for it. Plus I have them earn/learn it during play by requiring an unspecified number of successes. Some where in the 20+ successes range.
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sykoholic · Post by **sykoholic** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:01 am

Pardon my ignorance but let me see if I've understood this right...

The book is basically about how to make a Necromancer without actually making a Necromancer class. Correct?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:04 am

sykoholic wrote:
Pardon my ignorance but let me see if I've understood this right...

The book is basically about how to make a Necromancer without actually making a Necromancer class. Correct?

'zactly.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:05 am

Personally, I find it rather ironic, but oh well. I hope some cloistered discussions were of use.

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:58 am

count me among the Bowbe fans. I love HH, and I think City of Brass is one of the signature products of 3e. Bring it on, Case!

G

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:05 am

You see, I understand the whole concept of archetypes and such. I think the idea of not straying too far away from those already offered has many merits. But... a few questions come to mind when I consider the existing classes.

What is an Assassin but someone who is paid to kill someone professionally (and by saying professionally, I'm acknowledging that they are 'skilled' at killing)?

What really distinguishes the need for an Illusionist compared to a standard Wizard?

Perhaps these questions are more rhetorical than not. I'm surely not advocating endless amounts of classes but there are a few that might be nice to see official renderings done up for. Of course, I'd be happy to see a tool set that enables one to 'customize' existing classes with the appropriate EPP modifications...

M
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:30 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Of course, I'd be happy to see a tool set that enables one to 'customize' existing classes with the appropriate EPP modifications...

Agreed. The Ranger, Barbarian, Knight and Paladin are all essentially variants on the Fighter. However, archetypes are tricky at best. The Fighter, Cleric, Thief and Wizard Classes seem to already cover the broadest range of ideas. Indeed, the two basic and most recognisable archetypes are Fighter and Wizard.
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Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:31 am

I agree most certainly with both pro's and cons to the debate as Moriarty has so eloquently illustrated.

I'm also with him on the idea of EPP purchase of various traits/abilities though point out the inherent complications involved in such a system (without I may add giving any specific examples! How ya like that!) Seriously its so complicated it makes my head hurt and I've put a lot of mental muscle on the subject over the years. Maybe its my lack of descent algebra skills?

In Moriarty's example of the Illusionist and assassin I will add for fuel the following:

What IS the difference between the Illusionist and a Wizard/magic user other than access to the spells, and a role player with really good imagination? Zilch. Illusionist is one of those classes that If I had written the PHB I probably woulda skipped. Leave the spells, cashier the class.

Same with the assassin to be honest. THe amount of bitching and complaining about that class or prestige class depending on the game your playing is voluminous. My main gripe with them no matter what system your playing is that none of their "instant kill" abilities ever seem to work, be it because of bad die rolls, or due to the fact that in the waiting 3 rounds to kill an opponent while hidden... the player in 99% of situations ends up watching the fighter, monk, barbarian, rogue, wizard, cleric, or ranger kill his mark.

Assassins really only work (as ever presented in any format) in little solo side quests where lots of cool planning, organization and style gets used to really create an assassin style adventure.

Mostly they make great adversaries (that fail and must be chased across the planet in a world hopping adventure).

Again, a class I probably woulda skipped. Other than those two, I can find a pretty good home in most campaigns for any of the other archtypes. Even the much bemoaned monk.

As for myself, I am a big fan of "And OR" type character abilities that are in essence unique to a character class (or small group of classes), but may be selected from a short list of abilities. 3.0 did this to some success in my opinion with their writeup of the upper echelon abilities of their (already overpowered) rogue. The problem with their abilities and pimping such class alternatives with the rogue was simply, that their class was too overpowered compared to other classes in the first place. The idea was sound, the execution poor.

The "and or" method keeps the number of abilities unique to a class down, but still allows a good amount of diversity in developing a character that isn't your ordinary archtype but is still very much the archtype. That and nobody really "steals" anyone else's stuff

I threw some of these into Karbosk and some of that sorta thing is on its way into the CKG.

"And Or" Abilities are also nice when you are doing some campaign building because as the Castle Keeper you can toss a few variables into your campaign for use in the character's arsenal. You know, allowing for mongol type barbarians that aren't knights if that makes any sense?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:41 am

Quote:
I'm also with him on the idea of EPP purchase of various traits/abilities though point out the inherent complications involved in such a system (without I may add giving any specific examples! How ya like that!) Seriously its so complicated it makes my head hurt and I've put a lot of mental muscle on the subject over the years. Maybe its my lack of descent algebra skills?

Heh. Hmm.

[/passes this topic...]

I do not agree with the assessment of the assassin or the illusionist. I would, actually, drop most of the martial classes - they are redundant. Especially ranger and barbarian - have one or the other. Paladin and knight - again, one or the other. At least the illusionist actually has an effect -- they attack the mind, pretty much straight-up. No other class does that. And, the assassin... well, I just like them, but if pressed I could come up with something.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:29 am

I'm always glad to spark up some healthy conversation and debate.

I think one could probably boil down classes into three broad archetypes. However, variety is the spice of life ... to a point. I would never want to see endless amounts of splat books for C&C. I do believe a couple of additional classes, to better fit a setting for example, may not be a bad idea.

The Runemark and the High Elf as introduced with the Erde setting could be reworked for C&C. I've done one up for the Runemark, and I know a few others here have their versions. However, I think these would be a natural addition in a more detailed Aihrde box set or book.

I did feel that the Wilderlands for C&C might be best served with something like a Player's Guide but equally understand the reasoning against it.

Where does one draw the line? I think AD&D 2nd Edition initially had a good notion when it came to classes. There were fewer classes, but they introduced the concepts of kits. These were at first great, but it quickly became a money grab.

If the Necromancer in the context of the HH setting is best served with a new class, then great. If on the other hand, there are guidelines with regards to playing a Wizard or Cleric who specializes in the undead with maybe a tweak or two to the base class, then even better. I think it will kick ass regardless of the direction taken.

Oh... as a side-note Serl: I think Assassins kick ass too but it served as an ideal example to illustrate my point.

M
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Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:29 am

I like how the assassin in assassins creed works. He can fight, he can hide, he can climb, he can jump, and he has lots of nasty uber deadly weapons. He also performs most of his kills in public as "statement murders".

(Didnt care for the sci fi angle on that game tho)

I wonder how we could re-imagine the assassin class to reflect that. For now a "city" version of a ranger seems to be the better choice vs. the staple weakling "rogue based" assassin thats been around for 30 years.

Case

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:49 am

I would have dropped the Monk, Illusionist and Assassin.
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