csperkins got it go'n on - psionics

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:11 pm

Anyone look at his psionics stuff?
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~dp58/UnearthedArcana.pdf

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:32 pm

I think I may just use the ego whip stuff, etc.

And instead of having it as a class, having each character roll percentile dice to see if they have a chance of having psionics.

I could be wrong, but wasn't that the system in AD&D?

pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:37 pm

While it is nice to see a version of the original Unearthed Arcana without spine problems, how legal is that file to be posting?

The psionics section appears to be a cleaned up version from the back of the PHB, I am not 100% certain and double checking would require walking about 40', well, and I had better start preparing lunch. I will get to it if someone doesn't beat me to it.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:39 pm

pactmaster wrote:
While it is nice to see a version of the original Unearthed Arcana without spine problems, how legal is that file to be posting?

I've no idea, although I have seen references to this file for quite some time.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:11 pm

General rule of thumb, if one didn't write it or draw it, it doesn't belong to em, nor does rights to redistribute in altered form.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:57 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
General rule of thumb, if one didn't write it or draw it, it doesn't belong to em, nor does rights to redistribute in altered form.

Well, I'll leave it up for now.

It's my take on psionics, Dragon classes (The Death Master, Duelist and Anti-Paladin), and Unearthed Arcana added races. The "Point of View" articles are (obviously) from Roger Moore's classic articles from Dragon, as are the gods. The art is all from Dragon and/or Unearthed Arcana.

I realize that this and the PHB on the same page are heavily taking art/content from classic TSR products BUT I've done a lot of work on re-working it for use with C&C (it's pretty different from base C&C but is based on it) and am offering the stuff for free.

If the Troll Lords have any problem with my posting this material, I'll gladly remove it.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:00 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
Anyone look at his psionics stuff?
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~dp58/UnearthedArcana.pdf

Thanks! It is often that I get to read that "I've got it goin' on!" That's high praise indeed.

The psionicist is a blend of the AD&D psionicist fused with the 3rd edition psion class.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:28 pm

You aren't doing anything illegal, don't worry about it. Just make sure you give credit where credit is due and don't ever sell it.

As for psionics, I hate it as a class, unless its sci fi, but if I were to allow it in my C&C games it would be like it was done in AD&D.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:49 pm

I've seen it, yes. An interesting variant.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:51 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
I realize that this and the PHB on the same page are heavily taking art/content from classic TSR products BUT I've done a lot of work on re-working it for use with C&C (it's pretty different from base C&C but is based on it) and am offering the stuff for free.

Csperkins1970, thanks for the job you've done. It's really great. I am glad to have read this thread and thus got the final UA, as I only had the previous unfinished version.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:32 pm

Turanil wrote:
Csperkins1970, thanks for the job you've done. It's really great. I am glad to have read this thread and thus got the final UA, as I only had the previous unfinished version.

You're welcome... though that's not the finished version!
I'll try to finish the final few pages I've gotten stuck on (magic item creation and a short section on critical hits and fumbles).

Once I've actually finished it (index and all), I'll post a note here. The alternate PHB, on the other hand, is complete.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:17 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
Well, I'll leave it up for now.

It's my take on psionics, Dragon classes (The Death Master, Duelist and Anti-Paladin), and Unearthed Arcana added races. The "Point of View" articles are (obviously) from Roger Moore's classic articles from Dragon, as are the gods. The art is all from Dragon and/or Unearthed Arcana.

I realize that this and the PHB on the same page are heavily taking art/content from classic TSR products BUT I've done a lot of work on re-working it for use with C&C (it's pretty different from base C&C but is based on it) and am offering the stuff for free.

If the Troll Lords have any problem with my posting this material, I'll gladly remove it.

Thats the thing. None of the other work mentioned belongs to you. And the way the relevant laws work, you can't even redistribute it for free without permission from all parties.
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:55 pm

csperkins:

I have to agree with Peter. While I really do appreciate all of your work there, some of the writing and those illustrations aren't yours. You should at least notify the artists and writers before distributing their work, that is fair, and the rights to distribute might not be theirs. I read through the file, but I am a little apprehensive about downloading it.

I don't want to rain on a parade, but it is at least courteous to let people know that their work is being used in this manner. I hope you understand I am not trying to be a bully or a "meanie" and I know that this is about the most inoffensive case I have seen (I am an art fraud investigator for conceptart.org when time allows and I have seen some very blatant cases), you aren't claiming anything that isn't yours, but you need to notify the artists and see who owns the rights to the work. I am saying this to protect you as well. If some other company owns the art or writing that isn't yours there could be a huge kettle of fish on the boil. For the record, I am sure that you mean no harm and I am not instigating anything anywhere, there is no intent to claim anything that isn't yours, so I am not worried about it.

All of that said, your written work is superb,

pactmaster
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ChaosImp · Post by **ChaosImp** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:21 pm

Excellent stuff thanks csperkins1970 !!

IMP

ChaosImp · Post by **ChaosImp** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:27 pm

Quick question though, I was reading the Anti-Paladin and was wondering why his BTH is the same as a fighters? Also why are there 3 BTH columns?

IMP

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:53 pm

pactmaster wrote:
csperkins:

I have to agree with Peter. While I really do appreciate all of your work there, some of the writing and those illustrations aren't yours. You should at least notify the artists and writers before distributing their work, that is fair, and the rights to distribute might not be theirs. I read through the file, but I am a little apprehensive about downloading it.

I don't want to rain on a parade, but it is at least courteous to let people know that their work is being used in this manner. I hope you understand I am not trying to be a bully or a "meanie" and I know that this is about the most inoffensive case I have seen (I am an art fraud investigator for conceptart.org when time allows and I have seen some very blatant cases), you aren't claiming anything that isn't yours, but you need to notify the artists and see who owns the rights to the work. I am saying this to protect you as well. If some other company owns the art or writing that isn't yours there could be a huge kettle of fish on the boil. For the record, I am sure that you mean no harm and I am not instigating anything anywhere, there is no intent to claim anything that isn't yours, so I am not worried about it.

All of that said, your written work is superb,

pactmaster

Thanks for the warning... really. I'll take it down in a few days, so as to give people a last chance to download it.

It was, indeed, intended as an homage to AD&D, D&D 3rd edition and C&C that blended the best bits of each while trying to remain as faithful to AD&D's spirit as possible. I also wanted a ruleset that was highly compatible with C&C, D&D and AD&D adventures and products.

Still, in using classic art and descriptions, I am treading on thin ice here and I should remove this stuff soon...

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:07 pm

ChaosImp wrote:
Quick question though, I was reading the Anti-Paladin and was wondering why his BTH is the same as a fighters? Also why are there 3 BTH columns?

IMP

If you get my alternate PHB, you'll see that I only use 3 BtH progressions in the game.

Fighter-types and monks progress at +1BtH/level (+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1)

Clerics and thief-types progress at +2 BtH/3 levels (+0/+1/+1/+0/+1/+1)

Wizard-types progress at +1 BtH/3 levels (+0/+0/+1/+0/+0/+1)

Other than thieves (who have been "bumped up" in order to follow a unified level progression for all classes), these progressions roughly follow those given AD&D 1st and 2nd edition (characters gain a +1 net bonus to their BtH because their listed BtH progressions start at 1st level rather than 2nd level, as they did in AD&D).

The reason why secondary and tertiary BtH bonuses are given is that characters gain multiple attacks as their BtH progresses. Once their base BtH (not total "to hit" bonus) reaches +8, the character gains a second attack at with a BtH bonus 8 lower than their initial attack. They gain a third attack with a BtH bonus 16 lower than their initial attack once they reach a BtH of +16.

This is similar to the rules given in AD&D's Unearthed Arcana for fighter-types and carried over to 2nd and 3rd editions for all character types. I like the unified mechanic and think is gives high level characters a needed edge against enemy spellcasters and other high-level threats.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:31 pm

I thought this was a very entertaining document, it's just a pity that the format it has taken infringes on so many copyrights!

I like your Attribute Table, it's almost exactly the same as the one I am using these days and I thought the spell progression was worth taking note of.

I also like the way you have simplified the attack progressions into three groups. I think I would go further and just unify 'bonus to hit' so that every Class gets one per level (just like Monsters!). I'm not a big fan of Iterative Attacks, but I like giving Martial Characters more attacks earlier, partly to offset the impact of a unified bth progression.
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:22 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
Thanks for the warning... really. I'll take it down in a few days, so as to give people a last chance to download it.

It was, indeed, intended as an homage to AD&D, D&D 3rd edition and C&C that blended the best bits of each while trying to remain as faithful to AD&D's spirit as possible. I also wanted a ruleset that was highly compatible with C&C, D&D and AD&D adventures and products.

Still, in using classic art and descriptions, I am treading on thin ice here and I should remove this stuff soon...

I don't want to be the wet blanket here, especially with such a handy C&C add-on that has obviously had a lot of real time and effort put into it, but the off chance that file got into the wrong hands in this lawsuit-happy time I would rather look like a jerk and save you some trouble down the road. I would really hate to see someone come down on you for a labor of love, and you never know these days where surprises come from. What I, even doing what I do for conceptart (and I hunt down people who copy and claim the art of others like a rabid, voracious wolf), see as completely harmless someone could see as an infraction or infringement, or an instance in which they can cause trouble for someone else.

I hope in trying to help I haven't made an enemy here or caused any hard feelings. I appreciate your efforts a lot and I understand where your heart is with this, I would just rather say something then see things get sour for you.

Make sure you keep your files together and you can try to get art to replace that of previous versions.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:29 am

I'd like to see it redone without the infringing media as well. This is a good document but I would hate to see you or anyone associated with it in trouble.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:34 am

pactmaster wrote:
I don't want to be the wet blanket here, especially with such a handy C&C add-on that has obviously had a lot of real time and effort put into it, but the off chance that file got into the wrong hands in this lawsuit-happy time I would rather look like a jerk and save you some trouble down the road. I would really hate to see someone come down on you for a labor of love, and you never know these days where surprises come from. What I, even doing what I do for conceptart (and I hunt down people who copy and claim the art of others like a rabid, voracious wolf), see as completely harmless someone could see as an infraction or infringement, or an instance in which they can cause trouble for someone else.

I hope in trying to help I haven't made an enemy here or caused any hard feelings. I appreciate your efforts a lot and I understand where your heart is with this, I would just rather say something then see things get sour for you.

Make sure you keep your files together and you can try to get art to replace that of previous versions.

I appreciate your concern and will definitely be taking this down VERY soon. Hopefully I'll find some time to replace TSR's art (now owned by Hasbro I suppose) with some decent stuff that evokes the same feeling as the original pieces (some people don't care for the classic artwork and say that it's amateurish but, to me, it's the artwork that helped hook me into the hobby).

When I replace the artwork I'll re-post the documents and re-post links here for you all to use.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:58 am

pactmaster wrote:
What I, even doing what I do for conceptart (and I hunt down people who copy and claim the art of others like a rabid, voracious wolf), see as completely harmless someone could see as an infraction or infringement, or an instance in which they can cause trouble for someone else.

Well, at least I know who to call next time some cheeky monkey lifts my art work.

Yes, its happened, twice that I know of. One was even selling prints. ^_~`
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:22 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, at least I know who to call next time some cheeky monkey lifts my art work.

Yes, its happened, twice that I know of. One was even selling prints. ^_~`

Not to derail this thread, I saw that in the Artist's Alley about someone claiming your art. I chomp at the bit, make long distance phone calls, write long, detailed emails, promote smear campaigns, basically do whatever it takes to expose anyone who would profit off someone else's work. Inspiration is one thing, theft another. I am glad you nipped that one in the bud quickly.

The best bit with the conceptart crowd is that the art fraud inquisition has is fairly good sized and we have made a few contacts between us. And we share the rabid nature of becoming hate-filled screaming monsters when we see someone claiming someone's art.
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Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:00 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
I appreciate your concern and will definitely be taking this down VERY soon. Hopefully I'll find some time to replace TSR's art (now owned by Hasbro I suppose) with some decent stuff that evokes the same feeling as the original pieces (some people don't care for the classic artwork and say that it's amateurish but, to me, it's the artwork that helped hook me into the hobby).

When I replace the artwork I'll re-post the documents and re-post links here for you all to use.

All you have to do is give credit where credit is due, since you aren't trying to make money off of it. Getting their permission would be best of all worlds, but as long as you say who the art belongs to (Hasbro/WOTC), then your pretty good to go. At least that is what the copyright law professors at Texas A&M told me.
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:18 am

Treebore wrote:
All you have to do is give credit where credit is due, since you aren't trying to make money off of it. Getting their permission would be best of all worlds, but as long as you say who the art belongs to (Hasbro/WOTC), then your pretty good to go. At least that is what the copyright law professors at Texas A&M told me.

Unless, of course, the art doesn't belong to Hasbro/WOTC for a variety of reasons (like TSR paying only for first printing rights, for example, which could be the case of any single illustration) and sold to a subsequent company or reverted back to the artist, who could argue that any redistribution can be construed as altering the artwork. I have seen this happen many times and some artists balk at their art used for this purpose. It is always best to err on the side of caution.

I could get illustrator Ed Beard Jr. to weigh in on this, but really, he can be quite rabid regarding copyright law and artist's rights and I don't want to open a can of worms on this forum. csperkins has said he will change things around in time and that is the best policy.
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Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:34 am

pactmaster wrote:
I could get illustrator Ed Beard Jr. to weigh in on this, but really, he can be quite rabid regarding copyright law and artist's rights and I don't want to open a can of worms on this forum. csperkins has said he will change things around in time and that is the best policy.

I'm pretty sure that I have a CD of Fantasy Clip Art lying around somewhere in my attic. The art ranges from very good to abysmal BUT it should do the trick of filling in the blank spots left by removing the old TSR art.

In the meantime, please let me know if you like the non-art content... especially if you play with any of the houserules I've been using. So far the alternate PHB is the only book I've been using and it's worked out well for our group. Eventually I'd like to mix in the Unearthed Arcana material but, for now, I want to make sure that the game basics work before adding additional material.

Also, feel free to shoot rule questions/criticisms my way (i.e. why did you do X, Y and/or Z differently?) After all, what works for one of my groups and me might not work for you.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:49 am

Quote:
Well, at least I know who to call next time some cheeky monkey lifts my art work.

.... Does that count having some of your drawings on my screen saver....
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:53 am

pactmaster wrote:
I could get illustrator Ed Beard Jr. to weigh in on this, but really, he can be quite rabid regarding copyright law and artist's rights and I don't want to open a can of worms on this forum.

*chuckles* Yes, he can. Know him do ya?
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:16 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Yes, he can. Know him do ya?

I just watched him crushing a foe just last week. Over something that has to be quite lame: ebay skins. Some lady was stealing art and converting it (with sparkles, dazzles and other 90's webpage monstrosities) and selling them on ebay. I never knew people sold ebay skins for their auctions. Ed released the hounds, the backlash caused a stir, Quinton Hoover got involved, it was a debacle.

To csperkins: I did download the pdf (shakily, I admit), and I really do like what I have read and will be using your material in my C&C game.
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Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

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Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:44 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
In the meantime, please let me know if you like the non-art content... especially if you play with any of the houserules I've been using. So far the alternate PHB is the only book I've been using and it's worked out well for our group. Eventually I'd like to mix in the Unearthed Arcana material but, for now, I want to make sure that the game basics work before adding additional material.

I said this a while ago, but I love what you did and am a huge fan of both your player's handbook and unearthed arcana... I understand the art issues, but I hope that hasn't discouraged you from continuing to work on it. It's great.
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csperkins got it go'n on - psionics

csperkins got it go'n on - psionics

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