Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst

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TheNewGuy
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Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C Inst

Post by TheNewGuy »

Forgive me, but I just had to vent somewhere where people might actually understand what I'm talking about ...

For the record, I don't hate modern D&D. Played it right up through 3.5. To my mind all of the editions have had certain faults -- but this upcoming 4th edition ...

... folks, it makes my head hurt. Honest and for true, it does. It takes everything I specifically didn't like about editions 3.0+ of D&D (prestige classes; drowning players in skills and feats; the absolute necessity of playing with miniatures on a map grid) and magnifies them tenfold.

Has anybody else seen the latest "Save My Game" column on the DnD Insider website? In it, columnist Stephen Radney-MacFarland -- a well-meaning, sincere enough fellow -- waxes ecstatic about "table conditions" in D&D 4e.

"Table conditions?", you say? My reaction was the same.

Turns out, table conditions are special states which affect characters and opponents during play that 1) often trigger special abilities and opportunities in combat, and 2) which must (of course) be somehow marked on the now non-optional figurines and map-grid.

Things like:

Bloodied -- indicating who's hurt, and enabling them to call upon new abilities when in this state.

I quote:
Quote:
"You're in the middle of a tense battle. The wicked mind flayer and its grimlock minions have backed your group into a corner, and it is going to take pure grit and the best tactics to get out alive. It's the rogue's turn. Her player, Lisa, scans the battle grid. She knows that some of the grimlocks have been hit, but she can't remember which have been hit most often. "Which one looks the most hurt," she asks, knowing she should strike there to make an opening in anticipation of taking out their formidable leader.

I absolutely love the bloodied condition. Not only does it give designers an interesting trigger to put on truly debilitating and heroic effects, but it's also a fantastic tool of communicating the general state of the battle quickly. (If you haven't heard about the bloodied condition, check it out in the current D&D Miniatures rules. Because a number of interesting powers on both the PC and monster side rely on their players knowing when a foe is bloodied, when you start playing 4th Edition D&D, get into the early habit of calling out when your character or the monsters you control are bloodied. On the PC side, it lets the DM know that he can unleash some interesting monster powers and it lets your clerics and warlords know that you may want some hit point relief and soon. On the DM side, it lets players know how they are doing in the battle and gives them crucial information that will inform power and action point choice later in the encounter.

Depending on the size of your group, it may be pretty easy to have your players call out when their characters are bloodied. I'm one of those DMs who doesn't mind metagame chatter, so my players are free to talk about the particulars of their hit points and conditions, but I know that many DMs frown on this. Whatever your take on metagaming, have your players call out when they are bloodied when they become so. Bloodied should be no secret. If you are dealing with a particularly large gaming group, or, as DM, you're afraid that you're going to miss out on monster powers that trigger when an enemy is bloodied, give each player a little table-tent with the word "bloodied" on it. With a glance you can see the state of the PCs and progress the action quickly.

As far as letting the PCs know when monsters are bloodied, lately I've become a fan of actually marking the miniatures in some way. I've been taking my D&D Miniatures and sticking a pin in the top. I can then drop beads for different conditions. I have some white skull beads (picked up during a Gen Con So Cal) that I've been using for the bloodied condition."

Did that make you tired just reading it? Well, it did me. What used to be a storytelling game now seems to be all about the miniatures and the minutiae.

I had to laugh, though, at the authors use of the phrase "table tent". The only table tents appearing with my original D&D group might've occurred when the one guy's cute sister walked into the room to ask, "Are you guys playing that dumb game again?" But I digress ...

There are more conditions described, like

Marked
Quote:
"Marked is a new condition that defenders and some soldier monsters can apply to their enemies. By itself, it gives a penalty to your target if it attacks anyone but you, which helps defenders and soldiers fulfill their role on the battle grid. Often, though, there are other effects that serve as riders on the marked condition. For instance the paladin's divine challenge -- that class's signature marking ability -- does some amount of radiant damage once a turn when the target of divine challenge attacks someone other than the paladin who marked him. Of course, the fighter (the other Player's Handbook defender) features a different effect, dissuading her mark from taking the battle elsewhere. Oh, and this is really important to remember -- a creature can be marked by only one opponent at a time and new marks supersede old marks.

So like the combat advantage granted by flanking, marked is relational in nature, but unlike flaking, it can't be apprehended purely by looking at the battle grid. In simple battles with one defender or soldier, you won't have any trouble at all -- just have the defender's player keep track of it -- but when you have two defenders in a group (like I do in my Castle Greyhawk paragon-tier game) or a group of mark-using soldiers in the encounter, keeping track of the condition can be a tad tricky, and you'll probably want to use a rigorous method for tracking the condition throughout the rounds."

When did playing D&D become such busy work? No, scratch that -- just plain work. Sure, we all knew a DM or two who went crazy on the tactical detail -- but my point is, that used to be a choice, and now it seems to be a requirement. The only "rigorous method of tracking" I want to see at my gaming table should be courtesy of the party's Ranger ...

Remember the introduction to C&C? The bit about fantasy rpgs being games of imagination?

There's more, but I'll let y'all go look it up for yourselves if you're terribly interested. Something else called "Combat Advantage" is discussed, and then, when the author started talking about the joys of integrating cards into the table play, even I stopped reading.

Mr. E. Gary Gygax has died, and the game he co-created has suddenly become something I can barely recognize. All I know is, it sure doesn't sound like much fun any more, and that makes me genuinely sad, somehow.

So, I'm thankful Castles & Crusades exists, and I'm not sorry I cancelled my Amazon pre-orders of D&D 4e, and ordered the upcoming edtions of the C&C Player's Book and Monsters & Treasure instead.

Even if C&C is not everything I hope, it's still got to be more to my liking -- and more fun -- than 4e promises to be ...

I apologize for this long post, and I thank all of you for giving me a place to vent in relative safety. I was literally so appalled and disappointed by what I'd read tonight on the D&D Insider, I had to go somewhere and purge the bad mojo. Thanks for listening.

My C&C books can't arrive soon enough.

TheNewGuy

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Post by rabindranath72 »

Well...welcome to the Crusade!

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Post by papercut »

As a side bonus, you just saved yourself hundreds of dollars (if not thousands) in supplements you don't need. It sounds like you have some older books you already have that you can port over (very easily) to CnC. Thats like free money!

Cheers

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Post by Coleston the Cavalier »

And thanks for sharing!
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Post by BLOOD AXE »

papercut wrote:
As a side bonus, you just saved yourself hundreds of dollars (if not thousands) in supplements you don't need. It sounds like you have some older books you already have that you can port over (very easily) to CnC. Thats like free money!

Cheers

AMEN to that brother! It can get really expensive, really quick. Alot of those WOTC books are $40 each. You are probably going to need at least 3 books to play.

The C&C books were $20 each, $16 from an online retailer. a fantastic bargain for the quality & content.
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Post by Fizz »

Well TheNewGuy, i think you've hit on exactly why many of us have made the switch to C&C: we want to adventure, not waste time with number manipulation games.

Welcome to the Crusade!

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Re: Why I Cancelled My D&D 4e Books and Ordered C&C

Post by Fizz »

TheNewGuy wrote:
Even if C&C is not everything I hope, it's still got to be more to my liking -- and more fun -- than 4e promises to be ...

I'm sure you'll like it. One of the nice things about C&C is that it's very easy to add and tweak things. So if you feel you're missing something, you can pop it in right away and it'll still work.

-Fizz

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Post by slimykuotoan »

Yeah, you 'hit the pin on the head'.
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Post by Matthew »

Welcome aboard! I read that article last week and, I have to admit, I had pretty much the same response. I'm sure 4e will turn out to be a good game played by thousands, but it doesn't look to be anything I would be interested in.
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Post by areola »

One of the best post I've ever read in this forum. The RPG that WOTC makes which they call D&D has a different audience to cater as well as a different approach to playing. I am wondering what's so good about having alot of rules and maths in an RPG. They say that it does help in roleplaying and all, but it's obvious it doesn't. It requires alot of reading and mastery of the rules and I don't think I have the time coz I am busy thinking up character personalities and background.

My C&C sessions are focused entirely on the roleplaying, SIEGE checks and attack rolls. That's all. Some of the players are too engrossed that they almost forgot that they ARE rules to the game.. for me, thats just magic... It would be what Gygax would have wanted for everyone who played his game..

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Post by CharlieRock »

We're proud to have you with us.
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Post by Brutorz Bill »

Welcome!

Glad to have you with us!

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Post by serleran »

Hi.

Don't get my cards marked with your bloodied fingers, I might need to tap my d20 to activate my graveyard and avoid discarding my character sheet.

Welcome to the non-world.

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Post by Zudrak »

areola wrote:
One of the best post I've ever read in this forum. The RPG that WOTC makes which they call D&D has a different audience to cater as well as a different approach to playing. I am wondering what's so good about having alot of rules and maths in an RPG. They say that it does help in roleplaying and all, but it's obvious it doesn't. It requires alot of reading and mastery of the rules and I don't think I have the time coz I am busy thinking up character personalities and background.

My C&C sessions are focused entirely on the roleplaying, SIEGE checks and attack rolls. That's all. Some of the players are too engrossed that they almost forgot that they ARE rules to the game.. for me, thats just magic... It would be what Gygax would have wanted for everyone who played his game..

I agree with areola.

Two or three sessions back, we went the entire time without a die roll. The party was looking for a cleric to bring aboard. There were only 2 players at the time and the session was spent in conversation and in travel. No die rolls for "talking". No sense motive, no diplomacy, no "did hear you right", or "was that you?" rolls.
C&C restored for me the sense of freedom I felt was missing as a 3e DM. I couldn't put a finger on it until C&C was suggested to me.

Now, I can write scenarios and NPC stories instead of processing what seems like taxes at my game table.
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Post by Yamo »

Can you post some details about the cards? That sounds just too horrific to be true. Like all those jokes everybody made back when WotC first bought the D&D name.

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Post by Omote »

I think I'm going to throw up. Tap this.

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Post by GameOgre »

Hahaha I said the same things and had the same fit when 3.0 came out...left and never went back.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Alright. Lets not turn this into yet another 4e thrashing thread. If you don't like the game, don't give the company free advertising by bringing it up.
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Post by areola »

Lets not turn this into a C&C worship either.. TOO many of it around as well

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Post by Treebore »

areola wrote:
One of the best post I've ever read in this forum. The RPG that WOTC makes which they call D&D has a different audience to cater as well as a different approach to playing. I am wondering what's so good about having alot of rules and maths in an RPG. They say that it does help in roleplaying and all, but it's obvious it doesn't. It requires alot of reading and mastery of the rules and I don't think I have the time coz I am busy thinking up character personalities and background.

My C&C sessions are focused entirely on the roleplaying, SIEGE checks and attack rolls. That's all. Some of the players are too engrossed that they almost forgot that they ARE rules to the game.. for me, thats just magic... It would be what Gygax would have wanted for everyone who played his game..

There was a time that the D&D community ridiculed GURPS for being too rules intensive. 3E and 4E players can't say that anymore.

Welcome to the forums new guy! I'm willing to bet you'll find that C&C gives you that same "old style fun" you miss.
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Post by sieg »



Braaaaaiiinnnn Huuurrrtttssss!!!!!

***BOOM!***



Welcome aboard NewGuy! Let us know what you think of C&C when you get the books.
"Cards"? Brain hurting again....

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Post by JediOre »

Glad to have ya aboard.
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Post by Ghul »

Quote:
"You're in the middle of a tense battle. The wicked mind flayer and its grimlock minions have backed your group into a corner, and it is going to take pure grit and the best tactics to get out alive. It's the rogue's turn. Her player, Lisa, scans the battle grid. She knows that some of the grimlocks have been hit, but she can't remember which have been hit most often. "Which one looks the most hurt," she asks, knowing she should strike there to make an opening in anticipation of taking out their formidable leader.

I absolutely love the bloodied condition. Not only does it give designers

STOP!

Here is where old Ghul, the grumpy DM speaks up to "Lisa" and says: "What? Which one looks most hurt? Here's the deal, Lisa -- attack one right now, or spend your round observing your opponents. You have no chance in the heat of melee to assess which monster is injured most, nor are you an expert on Grimlock physiology, anyhow! The grimlocks want to kill you, Lisa. What do you do?"

Can I get a witness?

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Post by Yamo »

Ghul wrote:
STOP!

Here is where old Ghul, the grumpy DM speaks up to "Lisa" and says: "What? Which one looks most hurt? Here's the deal, Lisa -- attack one right now, or spend your round observing your opponents. You have no chance in the heat of melee to assess which monster is injured most, nor are you an expert on Grimlock physiology, anyhow! The grimlocks want to kill you, Lisa. What do you do?"

Can I get a witness?

You're far too kind. I'd let her spend a round standing there looking around (sans AC bonus) before telling her that her character can't tell.

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Post by Omote »

Ghul wrote:
STOP!

Here is where old Ghul, the grumpy DM speaks up to "Lisa" and says: "What? Which one looks most hurt? Here's the deal, Lisa -- attack one right now, or spend your round observing your opponents. You have no chance in the heat of melee to assess which monster is injured most, nor are you an expert on Grimlock physiology, anyhow! The grimlocks want to kill you, Lisa. What do you do?"

Can I get a witness?

Speak it loud, speak it proud! Sing the praises! *claps hands*

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Post by Lord Falcon MacGreggor »

Yamo wrote:
You're far too kind. I'd let her spend a round standing there looking around (sans AC bonus) before telling her that her character can't tell.

If you are involved in the combat, (Not checking over what obscure abilities may or may not be available to you) should you not be able to tell from the previous attack(s) that have already struck targets?
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Post by serleran »

Not necessarily, considering D&D (and most all FRPGs) don't have wounds in any kind of detail, considering the very abstract nature of HP. An attack by a dagger at level one against a fighter might be mortal (4 damage when you only have 6, for example) but, at 12th level, 4 damage means nothing. So, unless there is a mechanical way to gauge the strength of the opponent before the fight (or during it, a la C&C-style assassin, perhaps) then, no, there is no real way other than fiat.

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Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:
Not necessarily, considering D&D (and most all FRPGs) don't have wounds in any kind of detail, considering the very abstract nature of HP. An attack by a dagger at level one against a fighter might be mortal (4 damage when you only have 6, for example) but, at 12th level, 4 damage means nothing. So, unless there is a mechanical way to gauge the strength of the opponent before the fight (or during it, a la C&C-style assassin, perhaps) then, no, there is no real way other than fiat.

When damage is done in my game I describe it as cuts, bruises, etc... When their HP's are getting low, or are low to begin with, I describe them as nasty wounds, like a piercing cut through a thigh, or whatever...
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Post by serleran »

Yes, but do you also describe them like "you know if you cut him one more time with your razor-thin knife that he'll be half dead (bloodied), making him capable of doing heroic feats beyond what he could normally do..." I bet yu don't. I bet each strike is described differently, in different detail and gruesomeness... that was the point.

There are a few RPGs that do wounds to the level where "bloodied" makes sense. D&D has never been one of them.

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Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:
Yes, but do you also describe them like "you know if you cut him one more time with your razor-thin knife that he'll be half dead (bloodied), making him capable of doing heroic feats beyond what he could normally do..." I bet yu don't. I bet each strike is described differently, in different detail and gruesomeness... that was the point.

There are a few RPGs that do wounds to the level where "bloodied" makes sense. D&D has never been one of them.

No, but I do say they are slowing down, bleeding out, and look like they will be down with another good hit or two.

But give away any "special" abilities they don't know about, no.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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