Willpower: why now based on Charisma, and not Wisdom?

tjones5760 · Post by **tjones5760** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:08 am

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:36 pm

I see charisma as only presence of character, not will. A character with a high charisma can be beautiful, elequent in speech, or that certain something that attracts people to them.

Sometimes, beautiful and well spoken people crumble under the weight of a demon lord's promises of wealth and eternal life. That is why I think WIS is the closest thing you can get to a statistic for a character's willpower.

-O
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tjones5760 · Post by **tjones5760** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:20 pm

Omote wrote:
I see charisma as only presence of character, not will. A character with a high charisma can be beautiful, elequent in speech, or that certain something that attracts people to them.

Sometimes, beautiful and well spoken people crumble under the weight of a demon lord's promises of wealth and eternal life. That is why I think WIS is the closest thing you can get to a statistic for a character's willpower.

-O

I agree - but perhaps that is just because I am so used to thinking of it that way. The new way does make me think of Charisma less as a potential "dump stat" though.

jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:02 pm

I think that was probably one of the reasons; to make it less of a dump stat and spread all the saves more evenly around the attributes.

However, just because one is wise does not mean one has strong willpower, nor vice-versa. Essentially, willpower in C&C has been transformed from a "wise-man's faith" to a "confidence-man's sense of self worth." Con-man's willpower, so to speak...

I suppose if you want willpower to reflect a character's faith, you can let them take a special ability that lets them make fear saves and such against wisdom rather than charisma...
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Mythago · Post by **Mythago** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:09 pm

I like it with Charisma - gives the stat some 'underneath' power rather than just a pretty face.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:19 pm

I believe since Charisma reflects a persons "presence", physical and just pure "magnetism" it made enough sense to throw in pure "force of will", IE the will to live, the will of self determination.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:37 pm

I here you tjones5760.

To be honest, "real life" almost never translates perfectly into a rpg. I agree that giving CHA more to do is a good idea, and even tying all abilities and saves around all six seems pretty good too. It isn't perfect, but to me it's pretty close.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:32 pm

Treebore wrote:
I believe since Charisma reflects a persons "presence", physical and just pure "magnetism" it made enough sense to throw in pure "force of will", IE the will to live, the will of self determination.

Yes, this is well put. I beleive that was probably the exact reason for CHA in C&C tied to live or die spells.

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:54 pm

Charisma is many things. But, what is listed as save categories is not mean to be an universal must-apply-at-every-conceviable-situation... so, use whatever attribute for whatever you decide, keeping in mind that each of them is relevant and needed.

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:53 am

Heh, reminding me of a Hobbit Ranger I rolled up for a one-shot [maybe] last week. Great stats, with the exception of a single five. My buddy Don assumed right off that I would put that in Charisma, but my response to that was... how many truly ugly, disgusting, impossible to stand Hobbits go YOU know of? And no, Gollum doesn't count. He's an abberation. Nope, CHA gets a lofty 15. The five went to INT.

Jungger · Post by **Jungger** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:24 am

Captain Kirk has a Wis of 16 and a Cha of 18+.

Nuff' said.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:22 pm

I like that the've put willpower under charisma. I see wisdom as a measure of perception and experience. Where as charisma, as a measure of force of personality, fits perfectly with willpower.

As an aside, i like how C&C has treated saving throws all around- every stat has its purpose.

Though i've never understood why polymorph and petrification went under Wisdom. I put those under Strength (muscles fighting to reject the change being put upon them).

-Fizz

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:10 pm

tjones5760 wrote:
Willpower: why now based on Charisma, and not Wisdom?

Charisma: Force of personality

Wisdom: Insight.

Its a toss up either way.
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Arbold · Post by **Arbold** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:01 pm

I've always considered Charisma in C&C just as "Power" in the Call of Cthulhu game.

It represents fortitude and the power of soul; its main expression is magnetism.

I use it as prime attribute for psionic class.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:20 pm

You've all done things that you knew wasn't going to end right.

You knew because you were wise.

But you still did it and ended up calling your folks to post bail ... er, you still did the dumb stuff anyway.

Yeah.

Charisma just reassures oneself that they really don't need to do something they know is dumb.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:50 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
You've all done things that you knew wasn't going to end right.

You knew because you were wise.

But you still did it and ended up calling your folks to post bail ... er, you still did the dumb stuff anyway.

Yeah.

Charisma just reassures oneself that they really don't need to do something they know is dumb.

Well, I would use your example of when the WIS check was failed.

I look at CHA as being the part of you that you pull on to persevere when the going gets tough. Your mind over riding your body when your body is screaming for you to stop. Or demanding that you scream in pain because your half cut off leg hurts, but your brain refuses to do so because a scream would help your enemies find your hiding place.

Your sense of self refusing to let a charm spell take control of your "self". Your sense of self refusing to let your soul be torn from your boy.

That is what CHA covers, and is what makes it different from WIS, because that sense of "self" is what makes you the natural leader, its what gives you that confidence to make command decisions, its what gives you such a strong feeling of self determination that your difficult, if not impossible, to take control of with a charm. Its that sense of "self" that makes you refuse to die when a wizard tries to rip out your soul.

Thats why I can accept CHA as the basis for saves against Charms and death spells.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:06 pm

I tend to group the Saving Throws (in a not dissimilar manner to the one suggested for D20 2e, actually).

Strength and Constitution

Dexterity and Intelligence

Wisdom and Charisma

Only the best bonus and the worst penalty applies. I don't use Primes, preferring to treat all Saving Throws as 15+.
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Willpower: why now based on Charisma, and not Wisdom?

Willpower: why now based on Charisma, and not Wisdom?

Re: Willpower: why now based on Charisma, and not Wisdom?