Silver standard... need help

dualj · Post by **dualj** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:55 am

I wish to create a silverpiece standard for my new campaign world. How would you go about making it take place? I am keeping magic items in gp standard though.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:26 am

A copper standard is in the house rules at http://www.geocities.com/cnctraveller/cnc2.htm

A silver standard is mentioned in a 'houserulesminor.pdf' file I found somewhere but can't find now.... (people should really put the URL in their documents....
This later document divides costs in the Players Handbook by 100, so a 10gp Short Sword becomes a 1sp Short Sword. Starting coin also reduced accordingly.

dualj · Post by **dualj** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:46 am

I might just check out the copper piece standard...
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:40 pm

Indeed. If you want to use silver as the default currency, the easiest thing to do is just convert all the gp rices to sp [10 gp = 100 sp, etc...]. If you want to change the value of things, that's more tricky.
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jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:02 pm

As Matthew says, the easiest way to do this is to convert all prices (including magic, gems, and jewels) to silver by multiplying by 10, reset the value of the gold coin at 1 gp = 100 sp or whatever ratio you want, and simply make sure gold is rare. Whenever you use an existing module on the gold standard, simply divide the gold pieces present by the coversion ratio, or convert it all to to silver and put in a few gold. For example, if you change your gold value to 1 to 100 instead of the standard 1 to 10, a module-based treasure of 650 gp and 1,100 sp could be changed to 7,600 sp or 65 gp and 1,100 sp.

When a gold piece is as valuable as a small gem, it becomes a true treasure rather than a medium of exchange. Of course, gold and gems will be sought after greatly by adventurers in a silver world, as all that silver will be difficult to carry... and of course, money changers and jewelers will be more than happy to take a cut of every exchange!

Note that magic items are already pricedi nsanely high, even by D&D/C&C standards. If you keep magic items priced at the same gold level, it puts even potions out of the hands of lords and kings... and every noble lord would do his damndest to hunt down every adventurer with a magic item, as even the least is worth a king's ransom. 3E D&D always bugged me with the values of magic items (coupled with the supposed city/town/village economics of the 3E system); some mid-level parties would be walking around openly with magic items worth more than everything in an average-sized small city, and yet try to pawn off potions worth more than several villages at the local "magic shop."

And yes, I've always been what one would call "stingy" with magic items other than +1 weapons and armor and potions and scrolls... anythign more powerful should be rare and wondrous, IMNSHO.

Er, anyhoo... back to the silver standard discussion...
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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:43 pm

How you do this conversion depends on how large the silver coins in your campaign are. If we're talking about the standard English silver penny (240 to the pound troy = 24 grains - note that this is smaller than the historical U.S. dime which weighed 2.5 grams of silver or 38.58 grains - the current dime weighs 35 grains), then what I would do is convert all gp prices to 10 silver pennies. Gold should be worth about 40-50 times what silver is worth. If we're talking larger silver coins (0.5 to 1 troy ounce), then yes, 1 gp = 1 sp is a good rule of thumb. The Yggsburgh Town modules are using a conversion rate of 1 gp = 2 sp (so, for example, something that cost 1 gp in the CZY hardcover would cost 2 sp in the town modules, and 1 gp = 50 sp).
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:19 pm

dcs wrote:
Gold should be worth about 40-50 times what silver is worth.

What's the reason for this?
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:02 pm

The question is why do you want to change to a silver standard? Are you trying to decrease the amount of liquid funds available in the game (moving closer to a barter system) , are you just trying do make gold more of a commodity, or is there some other reason for this? The best way to go about this probably will depend on your answer.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:16 pm

Matthew wrote:
What's the reason for this?

I would guess because gold is valued at $1,000 per ounce and silver is about $14 per ounce.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:18 pm

I'm so done with common metals. I'll be using a uranium standard from now on. Maybe.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:23 pm

LOL...I put the copper standard into my games, and for the most part I'm pleased. But I think next time I'm going to have a temporal vortex created and some wall street tycoon from 21st Century Earth plopped into the past. He'll change the entire world and make everyone carry a credit card.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:28 pm

Treebore wrote:
I would guess because gold is valued at $1,000 per ounce and silver is about $14 per ounce.

Yeah, but those are the modern ratios that were used for Yggsburgh, they don't reflect the historical values. Am I missing something, is this campaign being set in the East Mark?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:29 pm

serleran wrote:
I'll be using a uranium standard from now on. Maybe.

Well you'll make Cure Disease a very needed spell!
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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:44 pm

Matthew wrote:
Yeah, but those are the modern ratios that were used for Yggsburgh, they don't reflect the historical values. Am I missing something, is this campaign being set in the East Mark?

I think they reflect historical values pretty well. The English pound sterling and the gold sovereign were approximately equal in value. The sovereign weighed 123 grains of 22 karat gold, meaning that it took about 51 of them to make 1 pound troy of gold. So at this point gold was valued at about 50 times the value of silver.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:57 pm

Which point in history, dcs? Is there a linkable source for this?

The First One Pound Coin

The gold sovereign came into existence in 1489 under King Henry VII.

The Pound Sterling

The pound sterling had been a unit of account for centuries, as had the mark. Now for the first time a coin denomination was issued with a value of one pound sterling. This new coin weighed 240 grains which equals 0.5 troy ounces or 15.55 grams, and was made using the standard gold coinage alloy of 23 carat, equal to 95.83% fine.
http://www.goldsovereigns.com/firstsovereign.html

This was worth 20 Shillings. However, the value of the Shilling in this period is not the same as when originally struck. By the early sixteenth century, Silver Pennies contained only 8 grains of Silver.

Even so:

240 Grains of Gold = One Pound Sterling

240 Silver Pennies at 24 Grains each = One Pound Sterling

That makes for only a 1:24 ratio, and that's assuming that each silver shilling contained a full allotment of silver, which it didn't.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:31 pm

Matthew wrote:
Which point in history, dcs? Is there a linkable source for this?

The First One Pound Coin

The gold sovereign came into existence in 1489 under King Henry VII.

The Pound Sterling

The pound sterling had been a unit of account for centuries, as had the mark. Now for the first time a coin denomination was issued with a value of one pound sterling. This new coin weighed 240 grains which equals 0.5 troy ounces or 15.55 grams, and was made using the standard gold coinage alloy of 23 carat, equal to 95.83% fine.
http://www.goldsovereigns.com/firstsovereign.html

This was worth 20 Shillings. However, the value of the Shilling in this period is not the same as when originally struck. By the early sixteenth century, Silver Pennies contained only 8 grains of Silver.

Even so:

240 Grains of Gold = One Pound Sterling

240 Silver Pennies at 24 Grains each = One Pound Sterling

That makes for only a 1:24 ratio, and that's assuming that each silver shilling contained a full allotment of silver, which it didn't.

'

Thats cool, after all the most important thing is to decide on a ratio of value. Todays ratio is 71 ounces of silver per ounce of gold. Your talking 24 to 1. So how historically accurate the ratio is, is not the important thing. Deciding on a ratio and applying it consistently is the important thing.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:36 pm

Absolutely, I was just wondering about the reasoning (I would quite like to find some evidence for a 50:1 ratio, as then I could put Yggsburgh as it is into a historical context).
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adaen · Post by **adaen** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:07 am

Treebore wrote:
I would guess because gold is valued at $1,000 per ounce and silver is about $14 per ounce.

Gold is worth what you can sell it for on the day you sell it (and where you sell it). Its value is based on what you can get for it. If you can get 1 broadsword or a bushel of apples for one gold coin, then that is what it is worth. If you can get 1000 swords for a gold coin a week later (after some deep deflation), then that is what it is worth. It has no intrinsic value of its own. It is based entirely on supply and demand.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:20 am

That is true in a free economy, but if you've got a heavy handed government enforcing exchange rates and prices at fixed values, then not so much.
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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:29 am

That sovereign only lasted until 1604.

The sovereign containing 113 grains of gold was re-introduced under George III in 1817.

The guinea, which was equal to 21 shillings, was 129.4 grains of 22-karat gold (there were 44-1/2 to the pound). So we see here again that gold's worth was about 50 times that of silver.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:56 am

Yes indeed, but the silver coinage after 1604 was even more debased than prior. That these are being measured in shillings rather than actual 'pounds' of silver suggests that they were being valued against real currency and not nominal currency. At the time the Guinea was introduced, about 1664, the Silver Penny weighed only 0.5g, which is to say about 8 grains. There were still 240 to the pound, though.

1664 Silver Pound = [96 x 20 = 1,920 Grains]

1663 Gold Guinea = 129.4 Grains

At 1 Gold Guinea to 21 Shillings, that is [2016 / 129.4 = 15.57]

At 1 Gold Guinea to 30 Shillings, that is [2880 / 129.4 = 22.2]

Which is to say substantially lower than your calculation, if mine is right.

In 1817, the Silver Shilling similarly was about one third (96 grains) of its initial weight (288 grains) and the value of silver to gold in Britain was fixed at 16:1 (as it had been since 1700).

1817 Sovereign = [113 x 16 = 1,806]

1817 Silver Pound = [96 x 20 = 1,920]

Honestly, though, this is getting a bit beyond anything I've looked into with any great fervour. Prior to 1500 I don't think gold was ever valued against silver at 40-50:1 in Europe. Gold Coins might be worth many, many silver coins, but as I understand it a shilling in 1500 only contained (240 x 12-15) grains of Silver and continued to decline afterwards.
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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:04 pm

adaen wrote:
Gold is worth what you can sell it for on the day you sell it (and where you sell it). Its value is based on what you can get for it. If you can get 1 broadsword or a bushel of apples for one gold coin, then that is what it is worth. If you can get 1000 swords for a gold coin a week later (after some deep deflation), then that is what it is worth. It has no intrinsic value of its own. It is based entirely on supply and demand.

Yes, but on the other hand, currency doesn't have intrinsic value either. So I don't think it is quite correct to say that gold is worth what you can sell it for. For example, you might sell an ounce of gold for $500 one week and $1,000 the next, but that doesn't necessarily mean that gold has actually increased in value - it could simply mean that the dollar has lost buying power. Apples and swords don't have intrinsic value either.
Gold (and other precious metals like silver) has proven to be a useful standard.
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dualj · Post by **dualj** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:19 am

To be honest, I want to do this because I always thought it would make more sense that either the silver piece or copper piece was the main money system for non-adventurers. I want the players to be able to relate to commoners more by having them aquire the same kind of money they do during some adventures. That way, when a player gets 50 gp, they have a reason to celebrate! I am still toying with the idea though so I might end up just using the gold standard.
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Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:10 am

dualj wrote:
To be honest, I want to do this because I always thought it would make more sense that either the silver piece or copper piece was the main money system for non-adventurers. I want the players to be able to relate to commoners more by having them aquire the same kind of money they do during some adventures. That way, when a player gets 50 gp, they have a reason to celebrate! I am still toying with the idea though so I might end up just using the gold standard.

This is precisely what we are doing with the Castle Zagyg campaign, and in fact fulfilling Gary's vision on this topic. For whatever reason he chose the exchange rate he did, it suits the purpose you cite.

It also creates another dynamic worth exploring by the CK. If the PCs walk about Yggsburgh using gold coins to pay for everything and flaunting such wealth, the thieves' guild is likely to take notice, for in this town of some 25,000 inhabitants, there are over 1,000 guild members, most of whom aren't going about robbing folks or establishments, but merely serving as informants.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:34 am

I like to keep rewards low for similar reasons. A sudden influx of ancient gold into the local economy is always noticed!
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simontmn · Post by **simontmn** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:51 am

Historically gold was only worth around 10-20 times its weight in silver (20 being more typical for non-gold-producing regions). 50-1 ratios are a modern thing.

Edit: If you want prices that look vaguely historical, just divide everything by 10 - so a 15 gp longsword becomes a 15 sp longsword. A 1 sp meal becomes a 1 cp meal.

Personally I'd keep the 10-1 gold-silver ratio and just say that silver coins are bigger than gold coins. This does over value copper though. Oh well. Maybe the copper coins are huge.

Lightfinger · Post by **Lightfinger** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:27 pm

My reasoning for keeping the 10 to 1 ratio is the following:

1) I don't want to deal with speculation markets. If I wanted to do that, I'd work on the real market
2) I don't want to have to convert/change pricing on the existing tables as that takes too long.

3) It is roughly equivalent to a common standard that did exist - the 'pieces of eight' of Caribbean piracy fame.

bighara · Post by **bighara** » Wed May 14, 2008 2:14 pm

FWIW, gold is currently at an atypical high in the market. Also, silver has lost value over the last few years due to advances in digital photography. Recent (the last 12-18 months) exchange rates are not in line with a historical average.

Not that reality should intrude too much on your fantasy game. I think a 50:1 or 100:1 ratio should work fine if most mundane costs are adjusted accordingly.

One thought might be to keep things like weapons and armor closer to normal prices. Back in the day, a gentleman's rapier cost the equivalent of about $20,000! The idea that a sword costs 10-15gp in a normal D&D economy always bugged me. Adventurers might start with a sword (a family heirloom), but buying a new one is an expensive undertaking!

simontmn · Post by **simontmn** » Thu May 15, 2008 7:11 am

bighara wrote:
One thought might be to keep things like weapons and armor closer to normal prices. Back in the day, a gentleman's rapier cost the equivalent of about $20,000! The idea that a sword costs 10-15gp in a normal D&D economy always bugged me. Adventurers might start with a sword (a family heirloom), but buying a new one is an expensive undertaking!

Hm, $20,000 gp would be an 'expert' weapon, normal swords cost a lot less - even $2000 would be quite high. I take it that 1gp = about $100, so $2000 = a 20gp rapier, close to C&C prices. If there's a problem with C&C or D&D prices it's the things that cost too much, like lantens costing as much as swords. Of course ca 1400 AD a sword didn't cost 15 gold coins at 1/50 lb of gold per coin, more like 1/10 that.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu May 15, 2008 9:57 pm

Depends on the period. In the sixth or seventh centuries, the following prices were current in Lombardi:

12 Solidi ~ Mail Shirt

6 Solidi ~ Helmet

6 Solidi ~ Greaves

7 Solidi ~ Sword

By the thirteenth century in France, it was more like:

16-32 Shillings = Helmet,

120-152 Shillings = Mail Hauberk

An inventory of goods stolen in 1324 from John de Swynnerton shows that a haubergeon with mail fittings (aventail, pisan and collaret), was worth ten marks. Bacinets were valued at ten shillings each, and, surprisingly, war swords at a mere 3s. 4d., half the price of longbows. A set of leg armour (jainbers, cuissans and poleyns) came to 15s.
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Troll Lord Games

Silver standard... need help

Silver standard... need help

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